The age-old debate about the plus-minus stat rages on, in terms of its relevance to how well a player is performing. To the extent that it’s a useful stat, it’s most useful in terms of comparing players on the same team. Comparing a Kings defenseman to, say, a Detroit defenseman is less relevant. Darryl Sutter brought up the stat today when asked, in general, about the recent play of Slava Voynov, so let’s take a look at how the Kings’ defensemen line up, followed by Sutter’s complete thoughts on Voynov.
Slava Voynov — plus-7
Willie Mitchell — plus-6
Drew Doughty and Davis Drewiske — even
Matt Greene and Rob Scuderi — minus-1
Alec Martinez — minus-5
(Jack Johnson — minus-12)
SUTTER: “So far, he has handled it really well. The one thing about Slava that nobody talks about is, the kid is a high `plus’ player, and that’s not by accident. When you’ve got high `plus’ players and high `minus’ players on a low-scoring team, that’s either a good thing or a bad thing. When he’s a high `plus’ player, that’s even strength, so that means he’s creating a lot and doing a lot offensively, and at the same time, understanding what he has to do the other way, to play a 200-foot game. He’s going to get better. There are things in his game. Because he’s not a big guy, he’s got to use his stick differently, in terms of getting his stick in areas where he can get pucks for us. He will have to get stronger. That’s something we can work on, but he’s a good player. I said that when he went down (to the AHL) too. He didn’t go down because he was a seventh or eighth guy. We need him to play as a four, to take advantage of him.’’
Great to see Voynov thriving, hopefully they don’t send him down again.
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dduffy Reply:
March 1st, 2012 at 5:34 pm
@TheAcaciaStrain,
He Ain’t going anywhere – get used to this talented player for years to come. And I’m really Happy about it – he bring a lot to the table and stands to get Much Much better.
JMFJ Who?
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puck73 Reply:
March 1st, 2012 at 5:53 pm
@dduffy, You know its just a matter of time before the Columbus fans start screaming about JJ’s plus minus, and wanting Howsons head on a platter for trading Carter away!
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McSorleyfan Reply:
March 1st, 2012 at 6:25 pm
@puck73, by about 22 games into next year’s schedule. MMW.
Jeff_R Reply:
March 1st, 2012 at 7:23 pm
@puck73, Actually what Howson did to Nash is what is going to make them go nuts on Howson. What might help JJ is having a more offensive system, as many people have been mentioning here
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DiggerRocket Reply:
March 2nd, 2012 at 9:54 am
@dduffy, because we have Voynov… I would make that trade for JJ every day of the week. Love it!
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addition by subtraction of subtraction?
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Now everyone can start talking about our ol’ pal JJ…
What’s Carters Plus Minus?
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puck73 Reply:
March 1st, 2012 at 5:23 pm
@KingsGuy, Beware Mr. Sutter. The blogger known as @Dominick will come at you with corsi and fenwick stats until you scream UNCLE !
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jess Reply:
March 1st, 2012 at 7:45 pm
@puck73,
He’s not going to mention corsi when it comes to JJ
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NOT IMPRESSED Reply:
March 1st, 2012 at 5:31 pm
@KingsGuy, He’s a minus 1.
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DEH Reply:
March 1st, 2012 at 6:24 pm
@KingsGuy, Carter is minus -1, played with nash who is -23 last I checked, but missed a good chunk of time due to injury. It doesn’t count for Carter, he came from a team with everyone being minus.
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Jeff_R Reply:
March 1st, 2012 at 7:25 pm
@DEH, Both Nash and Carter are very good defensively and them being a minus in Columbus is not indicative of that, as the whole team stinks especially the defense and Goaltending. JJ will probably end up a -30 by the end of the season.
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DEH Reply:
March 1st, 2012 at 7:27 pm
@Jeff_R, yeah, that’s my point, it doesn’t count b/c it columbus.
Alex Reply:
March 2nd, 2012 at 7:21 am
@KingsGuy, -12 but remember that’s on the worst team in the NHL. That’s going to change as soon as he and Richards will start putting up points.
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Wow… Rich is a writing machine today.
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DesertKing Reply:
March 1st, 2012 at 5:28 pm
@XodusMatthew,
Thats what happens when you have gourmet burgers with such creative people as Marcel and Foxy.
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methinks the guy that Sutter and DL were disagreeing on was Jack Johnson.
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puck73 Reply:
March 1st, 2012 at 5:33 pm
@Dave, I think Sutter won that aguement…thank god.
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Jeff_R Reply:
March 1st, 2012 at 7:27 pm
@puck73, Had we been a better offensive team and scored more goals JJ’s defensive woes would of been masked. However since we couldn’t score he was sent away to bring someone who can, which makes us better both ways.
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paige Reply:
March 2nd, 2012 at 12:05 am
@Dave, That captured my curiosity. What disagreement?
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And JJ is a -4 with his new team–not wishing him ill but it does make one wonder about his abilities defensively when it doesn’t seem (at least so far) to make any difference what group of guys he is playing with…he’s still seems to be a bit of a liability.
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Osaka Reply:
March 1st, 2012 at 5:44 pm
@rontheking, I expect a minus playing on Columbus not on the Kings.
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Jeff_R Reply:
March 1st, 2012 at 7:29 pm
@Osaka, The only reason why any Kings have minuses is because we can’t score, except on the PP which is where most of JJ’s points were. If we were better scoring team we wouldn’t have any minuses. Although with JJ you don’t know, but most likely even he would be a plus just not a very high one.
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Wilmonde Reply:
March 1st, 2012 at 6:19 pm
@rontheking,
I would definately expect his +/- to go negatively in Columbus as they will likely be playing their new star defenseman against their opponents top line a lot. Given that, along with no real defensive structure for the team, and he will be on the ice a lot when their opponents get their goals.
I remember seeing him being on the ice for a goal against; he was definately covering his own man, but the rest of his team broke down.
I kind of feel bad for him, but I am glad he had such good value on the trade market.
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JVR out with a broken foot – rough year for the kid
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whose JVR?
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puck73 Reply:
March 1st, 2012 at 5:50 pm
@tellmeY, James Van Reimsdyk of the Philadelphi Flyers.
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I am very happy with most of Daryl Sutters coaching decisions. I am also pleased that he realizes the upside and potential of Voynov right now! I think Sutter and Nichols are opening Lombardis eyes on the type of hockey that is being played in the NHL since the lockout.
Another thing I like about Sutter is that he is willing to make adjustments, and take responsibilty when he feels he made a mistake.
I think its just a matter of time before DS and BN try Voynov at the point because these 2 guys seem pretty sharp and dont take too long before they make a change.
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Osaka Reply:
March 1st, 2012 at 5:49 pm
@puck73, He has played the point.
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puck73 Reply:
March 1st, 2012 at 5:51 pm
@Osaka, On the second unit he has yes. Right now Richards and Doughty are playing the point on the 1st unit.
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DEH Reply:
March 1st, 2012 at 6:27 pm
@puck73, Eventually I see the pp units looking like
first
Kopi Richards Carter
DD VV
second
Brown Stoll Williams Penner
Marty (Stoll plays point but takes faceoff)
I never understood the excuses for JJ’s +/- when his was twice as bad (more than twice) as any other defenseman on the team. Only comparing it to other Kings defenseman mind you is fair. Didn’t he have a partner? How was this possible?
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puck73 Reply:
March 1st, 2012 at 5:58 pm
@Osaka, Jack Johnson has all the physical skills to play in the NHL at a very high level. Unfortunately for JJ, IMO 3 quarters of the game is mental and his record breaking minus level cannot be swept under the rug. Especially when you consider that JJ played for TM who always thunk defense 1st. Even in this scenario, there wasnt any defensemen on our team close to the horrendous minus that JJ was putting up…not even close.
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McSorleyfan Reply:
March 1st, 2012 at 6:18 pm
@puck73, I agree with you, and feel the need to add that while the value of the stat is often debated, the vast disparity between JJ’s plus-minus and the rest of the team forces relevance for this situation. Somewhat like a pole’s margin for error, JJ’s numbers are so far away from the center of the bell curve that I must say the team has been improved in two directions simultaneously.
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Kingsfanone Reply:
March 1st, 2012 at 8:21 pm
@puck73,
I also agree with you.
I have a question tho. THUNK?
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Kenny44 Reply:
March 1st, 2012 at 9:10 pm
@Kingsfanone, Canadian dialect
vicarious Reply:
March 1st, 2012 at 6:09 pm
@Osaka, The defenseman play normally in one pair. But they get shifted around fairly often, for example when one of the defensemen has a penalty. Even when they get back to full strength, they have a shift or maybe two with another guy so fresh guys are playing. Jack had consistent minus no matter which players he was playing with. They also run this stat “WOWY” where they compare each player’s #’s with all the others on the team. Jack was a consistent drag down on other’s #’s over his career with the Kings. Doughty, on the other hand,usually playing better competition, shows up as a stud.
jack has the physical tools to be a great NHl player. But his results just ain’t there. Playing on a bad team in front of weaker goalies than here in LA, if they give Jack the minutes, unless jack adjusts his game drastically he could hit -50 for next season. I’d also bet after 10 games with Columbus this year, Jack’s the worst minus among their defensemen over those 10 games.
I’m glad we picked up Carter but feel sort of sorry for Columbus.
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puck73 Reply:
March 1st, 2012 at 6:11 pm
@vicarious, Too bad Craig Button didnt read this post before he opened up his Piehole.
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What I can’t believe is that Drew Doughty is even. All I see are mistakes by him, he isn’t worth the money so far.
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puck73 Reply:
March 1st, 2012 at 5:59 pm
@John Roy Morgan, That also shows you how much better he is then JJ at his best…no comparison.
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McSorleyfan Reply:
March 1st, 2012 at 6:22 pm
@puck73, and yet many were suggesting we trade Doughty ratyher than JJ. We’d seriously be stinking up NHL ice.
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Kevin Reply:
March 1st, 2012 at 6:03 pm
@John Roy Morgan, Doughty is awesome maybe you’re nit picking? He’s our best blueliner by a mile its not even close. I expect next year he’ll be battling for the Norris trophy.
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JD Reply:
March 1st, 2012 at 7:09 pm
@Kevin, Nice to see the doughty hate dying down some, to bad it’s just directed at someone else
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Kings x Reply:
March 1st, 2012 at 11:14 pm
@Kevin, If DD were the player We think he is he would train with gary Roberts in the off season. Anyone seen Stamkos lately. Beast!!!
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Osaka Reply:
March 1st, 2012 at 6:06 pm
@John Roy Morgan, DD is 29th in scoring among defenseman in the league but Kopi is also 28th in scoring overall.
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puck73 Reply:
March 1st, 2012 at 6:09 pm
@Osaka, Good point about Kopi. That being said, I also think Kopi and Datsyuk are the best 2 way centers in the game currently. Kopi is a natural when it comes to lifting the stick and getting back defensively.
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Jeff_R Reply:
March 1st, 2012 at 7:36 pm
@puck73, I think the Kings have the best top 3 defensive centers in the league right now with Kopi, Richards and Stoll. I mean as a team not individually. Datsyuk is the best.
Kenny44 Reply:
March 1st, 2012 at 9:23 pm
@puck73, Not sure if Kopi’s back checking reflex is all natural – I think he’s had some Murray hormones added the past few years. It is totally ingrained in him now, though. I still remember laughing at watching him coming back low and slow through the defensive zone in the frigging All Star Game.
Ezra Reply:
March 1st, 2012 at 8:03 pm
@John Roy Morgan, He’s also regularly matched up with the opposing team’s top line. I think he does a good job of making just as many great plays against them as mistakes. And were you to stick Voynov up against the top line every shift he would be making just as many mistakes if not more.
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Leatherface Reply:
March 2nd, 2012 at 8:19 am
@John Roy Morgan, when you’re the #1 and eating the bulk of the minutes, you get the most exposure to mistakes etc. Drew’s time off the ice hurt him a bit, no doubt, hopefully it pulls together before next season.
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Not to beat an already absent dead horse, but by the end of next year, I predict we can look at the bottom of the league’s +- and find JJ holding that spot down, unless the man makes some huge changes there in how he approaches the game.
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CBJ 1, COL 0
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Jeff_R Reply:
March 1st, 2012 at 7:39 pm
@petemagoop, 2-0 Blue Jackets. Beat them Avs’s. Go Jack!!!!
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Save, Hrudey! Reply:
March 2nd, 2012 at 4:18 am
@Jeff_R,
And yet, somehow, JJ is still -5 for the game.
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Was at todays practice. Good energy and alot of work on the PP. Voynov fits in so well. You can see he has a natural sense for puck movement and setting up the other players. He will only get better defensively as well. Side note…. DP looked.good today with energy and display of great set of hands even garnering a high five from Coach.
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JackKentCooke Reply:
March 1st, 2012 at 8:26 pm
@jk28,
Have not read his wife’s divorce file, but I’m guessing she said he had good size, skill and hands but, didn’t bring it every day.
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Shuchuk Reply:
March 1st, 2012 at 8:45 pm
@JackKentCooke, Hahaha.
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grega11 Reply:
March 1st, 2012 at 11:34 pm
@JackKentCooke, perfect!
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Let’s all calm down about dumping on JJ’s +/- now that he is out of town. Yes he was a big minus player as the stat is calculated. But if you look at his +/- over his time with the kings without subtracting his PPG, and PPA it turns out that Jack was nearly a 0. Last year the ducks toni Lydman was near the top of the league in +/- while jack was the biggest, minus player on the Kings if you looked beyond the +/- stat you’d see that Jack had similar goals and assists to Lydman’s, but that Lydman was never on the ice when the Ducks scored. On the PP, but Jack accumulated many of his points on the PP.
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Kings x Reply:
March 1st, 2012 at 11:12 pm
@sh27696, Over all that is JMFJ
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About the mental side of the game…..remember last year when the team could not help but give up a goal less than 2minutes after they scored one? Not a problem this year. Not that I am giving up this year, cause I’m not. But this ironed roster with a fresh start will seriously contend! I initially was sad when JJ was dealt but the reality is we are better for it……no question. Voynov is an upgrade in many ways, earlier this year many on this forum were wondering if we could even keep him here…he’s here to stay.
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JJ fighting now too, wow!
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Jeff_R Reply:
March 1st, 2012 at 7:37 pm
@DEH, That is one of the things I missed him doing as a King. COming into the league I thought he was going to fight a lot.
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Stuart Reply:
March 2nd, 2012 at 8:24 am
@DEH, who did he fight? and how did he do?
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kluka68 Reply:
March 2nd, 2012 at 9:47 am
@Stuart, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhOi9zO8Urk
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Jj -90 the last 5 seasons on a defensive team worst in NHL of any player. Need I say more?
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End of 2 and Blue Jackets lead Colorado 2-0
ENd of 2 Calgary 3 Phoenix 2
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Jeff_R Reply:
March 1st, 2012 at 8:08 pm
@Jeff_R, Under 10 minutes to go Blue Jackets still lead 2-0. Mason is playing well.
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If Voynov is that good, why Sutter doesn’t use him in PK? The answer is obvious to me.
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jess Reply:
March 1st, 2012 at 8:36 pm
@goldielocks,
Wow, it’s the 2nd ooming of Sherlock Holmes.
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goldielocks Reply:
March 1st, 2012 at 11:18 pm
@jess,
It’s not much of a mystery though.
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jess Reply:
March 2nd, 2012 at 12:48 am
@goldielocks,
Voynov, technically sound plus 7 defenseman. You have advice for him?
luc20rules Reply:
March 2nd, 2012 at 12:17 am
@goldielocks, With Voynov its not talent or defensive play on the PK, its lack of size. Greene is one of the best PK defenders on the Kings because of size to control play in the slot & heart not skill. The thing that kills me about Greene is he is not great at clearing the puck on PKs, but I will never question his heart that boy will go down infront of anybody’s slapshot.
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Buffalo takes a 1-0 lead over SJ. End of 1st.
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Slava rocks. Just goes to show you what the slow and proper development of an AHLer can do for him when he hits he show. Be an immediate impact player. Wish all the players were like that or we had the fortune of the players panning out like that.
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Why does well deserved praise of Voynov have to be followed up with very mean spirited bagging of Jack Johnson on this blog. The guy was a great, un-selfish, hard working player for us. Why people get such a thrill out of kicking him while he is down is beyond me???
“Oh Boy Jack Johnson was minus 2 tonight in Columbus, Oh Boy”!!
This kind of chatter just makes our fan base look petty and mean.
Let’s spend more time sending positive talk about our players that are still on our team and have some class and lay off the Jack bashing, it’s just pointless now….
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puck73 Reply:
March 2nd, 2012 at 7:53 am
@King Cobra, You wanna experience mean? Go read the New Jersey Devils blog ‘Fire and Ice’ sometime. Ont that site, anything goes. They dont care if you rip some blogger a new one. Or have an opinion on Gary Bettman..’ I hope he dies in a firey car crash!’. That is without question the most incredible opinion I have ever read on a hockey blog.
The stuff that is written about JJ is pretty tame in comparison to what is allowed elsewhere.
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King Cobra Reply:
March 2nd, 2012 at 11:58 am
@puck73, The Jersey Shore version is probably pretty bad. I just think we are better than that and should chill out on the giddy comments about JJ’s +/- being so bad. I really liked the guy, but I am 100% stoked on the trade and CARTS!!!
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I’ll never be convinced that a team statistic should hold a sole player accountable. The ONLY time is when there is such a giant drastic difference. I.E., one player is a plus 25, and the other is a minus 25.
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FKA PakiFro Reply:
March 2nd, 2012 at 9:37 am
@mrbrett7,
Sadly that was kind of the case the last couple of years with JMFJ.
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mrbrett7 Reply:
March 2nd, 2012 at 11:44 am
@FKA PakiFro, Who was at plus 25 on the Kings the last few years? There were far more negative players on this roster than plus, and the plus players were plus by not much, if my memory serves.
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Osaka Reply:
March 2nd, 2012 at 3:57 pm
@mrbrett7, Not true, I think you need to look at the stats and not rely on your memory.
Osaka Reply:
March 2nd, 2012 at 3:56 pm
@mrbrett7, Last year Kopi was +25 while JJ was a -21. Two seasons ago Simmer was a +22 and DD was a +20 while JJ was a -15.
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