It’s well known that upon his arrival, Terry Murray put in a defense-first mindset. In his first training-camp practice, he had dots spray-painted on the ice, directly in front of the goal, and told players that was the area that needed to protect at all costs. So, that’s been the mindset for three years. It hasn’t changed, nor (fundamentally) has the system, but the results have. The Kings ranked 27th in goals per game in Murray’s first season, then went to ninth, then 25th, and now they’re 30th. So, after practice today, Anze Kopitar, Drew Doughty and Murray took their swings at the unceasing “system’’ question.
KOPITAR: “Are we the most offensive (minded) team in the league? Probably not. Are we the most defensive team? I don’t know. Tampa is sitting back quite a bit. Minnesota is sitting back. Anaheim, last night, they were playing 1-4 (trap) right off the get-go. I guess that’s where the game is going, a little bit. It’s more conservative. Neutral-zone forecheck, that’s what it is. Everybody is pulling back. I guess the Devils played that just before the lockout, and everybody was getting on them about how everybody played the trap, and now it seems like everybody is doing it.’’
DOUGHTY: “I definitely think that we have more a defensive system, so they’re right on that part, but at the same time (coaches) are really pushing things on offense, and it’s really up to us. We’re all in the NHL for a reason, because we have the capability to make plays and do certain things. All of our offensive (minded) guys need to pick it up and find a way to create chances. I think we’ve done a lot better lately, but we still have a lot of room for improvement, and we’ve got to do that.’’
MURRAY: “Actually, we’re more aggressive on our forecheck this year than what we were last year. We’re really demanding our second support man to come with a lot more speed from the back of the net. We anticipated it, from what we saw at the end of the year last year, when a lot of teams started to go more defensive through the middle of the ice, at their own blue line. So we loosened up that second forechecker to get in faster, to help support and recover pucks. We’re getting our share of pucks in the offensive zone. The one thing we did a little bit better last night, and it’s starting to come, is we moved our feet, with possession of the puck, to create some time and create some space for passing lanes. That was better last night, and we’ve got to continue to push it.’’
I wonder if Murray was standing next to Kopi and Doughty when they were talking about the system… Sure seems like he was.
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wavesinair Reply:
December 7th, 2011 at 6:45 pm
@zulov,
If they were, I hope they started dancing and said, “See coach, we’re moving our feet!”
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Jason4Kings Reply:
December 7th, 2011 at 9:02 pm
@wavesinair, Hey, your comment tracker page is acting a little weird today. And also, thanks for the comment tracker page! Been using it a long time now, very helpful.
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wavesinair Reply:
December 7th, 2011 at 9:14 pm
@Jason4Kings,
Thanks! What do you mean weird? Email me your answer over there please.
Duckbasher Reply:
December 7th, 2011 at 9:04 pm
@wavesinair, are you actually groucho marx? Classic line.
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Shane Reply:
December 7th, 2011 at 6:48 pm
@zulov, Exactly my thought. Get these guys to talk off the record and I think you would get very differnt responses. I am curious what their body language was like when answering this…how many players eyes were rolled.
You can play sound defense AND, I repeat that TM, AND play an up tempo and creative offensive game. You’ve got the horses to do it.
Either way I think for the first time TM is nervous about his job and he should be. Great teacher, crappy coach with defenisve myopia. The day he is fired is the day this team will really start to thrive.
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mash-ola Reply:
December 7th, 2011 at 7:45 pm
@zulov, Shane, Anything you can imagine is purely conjecture. Rich asked the question, the players and coach answered it. It’s there in black and white. Speculating anything else beyond that is your perogative, but unless you were there and saw TM pointing a gun at the players heads, this is all anyone can assume.
It oould just as well SEEM like they’re answering truthfully and honestly. Did it ever occur to anyone that they actually mean what they said? Shocking,I know, but that’s what it seems like to me.
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Duckbasher Reply:
December 7th, 2011 at 9:11 pm
@mash-ola, There’s no way Kopi or DD meant that. Read the previous post by rich “kopi talks about frustration”. In that interview he said it was better to lose 5-4 than 2-1 AND that they have Jon Quick behind them. He said is we score 4 goals we can win because we have the best goalie in the NHL. He was clearly alluding to “IT’S THE SYSTEM EVERYONE”. In this case, Terry Murray was obviously standing 5 feet from him when he answered this series of questions and he did the Terry Murray dance (“my feets ‘a movin boss”).
USHA#17 Reply:
December 8th, 2011 at 5:51 am
@duckbasher
32 of 48 = times 4 or more goal scored by 1 or both teams in a game in the past 14 days
.333 = chance that a team will score 4 or more
7 of 48 = times 4 or more goal scored by both teams in a game in the past 14 days
Gann Matsuda Reply:
December 7th, 2011 at 11:09 pm
@Shane, off record conversations don’t indicate anything different.
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Gann Matsuda Reply:
December 7th, 2011 at 7:17 pm
@zulov: all were separate scrum interviews.
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wavesinair Reply:
December 7th, 2011 at 7:19 pm
@Gann Matsuda,
Where they moving their feet?
Love your audio by the way. So great to hear it.
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Shane Reply:
December 7th, 2011 at 7:39 pm
@Gann Matsuda, No offense Gann because I know you’ve blogged and covered the Kings for some time but I wonder if players are more tight lipped around you after the Lombardi interview fiasco.
Does it really matter though? The players are failing in TM’s system and the numbers continue to prove this. If DL is gonna back this guy all the way then he and TM can wax poetic about 1970′s hockey in the unemployment line. There is just no sound reason for a team with the players this team has to suck this bad. This is on TM and the sooner DL or TL for that matter realizes it the better.
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Gann Matsuda Reply:
December 7th, 2011 at 10:00 pm
@Shane, nah…they really don’t have any reason to be. Even right after that, no change.
Gann Matsuda Reply:
December 8th, 2011 at 1:16 am
Since we’re on the topic here, shameless plug time (sorry Rich!):
Los Angeles Kings: Players Counter Claims That System, Coach Stifle Offense
Michael J. Reply:
December 8th, 2011 at 9:18 am
@Gann Matsuda,
Great blog entry (above). Thanks!
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zulov Reply:
December 8th, 2011 at 3:28 pm
@Gann Matsuda, I really liked your blog. Very nice. Although you have to admit you contradicted yourself in the end by saying that TM is not the coach that can take us all the way –
IF he is not that coach, and everyone seems to think we have the players to go all the way, then letting TM run us into a first round exit again would be the definition of insanity.
Why in the world would we wait and let any more games go south if he can’t deliver us the cup?
With all do respect to the players, and they would know way better generally, it is occasionally the case that a completely new perspective may open up the mental block they have been having. Most of these guys have only called TM “coach” in their NHL careers.
They may not realize how good Detroit or Chicago or Vancouver has it.
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Drew I like what you have to say about this system issue. Get your guys on that boat and we may just ride thru this.
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UpperV Reply:
December 7th, 2011 at 7:59 pm
@Christian T,
Yes, it’s about being creative and making plays. It isn’t about having the freedom to go in hard on the fore-check and try to create turnovers.
Talk about what we do when we already have the puck. The issue is whether they have the green light to move laterally, to curl back, to make a drop pass, etc.. Keeping it simple, north/south and trying to put the puck on net isn’t the answer. Creativity is the answer and if you can only move north/south and shoot the puck at any opportunity, then it’s kind of hard.
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“unceasing system question”
Classic.
The system is and will be a ceaseless, constant, continual, continuous, day-and-night, endless, eternal, everlasting, never-ending, nonstop, persistent, relentless, round-the-clock, unending and unyielding topic until something changes.
30th in scoring, for the record, is going BACKWARDS. This team, for the record, is supposed to be going FORWARDS…as in offense.
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CB14 Reply:
December 7th, 2011 at 6:45 pm
@wavesinair, I don’t know what you’re talking about, the Kings are offense. You just forgot to substitute “ive” in place of the “e” at the end of offens.
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furrylats Reply:
December 8th, 2011 at 12:10 am
@CB14, chirp
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rumors that I have heard but not confirmed……..there will be new rules for this blog.
Cant use the word fire and TM in the same post
Cant use the word “system”
Cant mention the following players…”Moulson..Boyle..and anyone else who left and became scorers..
Cant mention anyone on the Kings who use to score before they became a member of the Kings
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wavesinair Reply:
December 7th, 2011 at 6:48 pm
@neil,
At least we can still say, “moving our feet.”
The new Footloose movie makes me ill, but maybe TM needs to watch it instead of basing the offense on Kevin Bacon’s version…you know…1984.
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neil Reply:
December 7th, 2011 at 7:03 pm
@wavesinair, you can also say “shot mentality” for now…
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alphatronic Reply:
December 7th, 2011 at 8:30 pm
@neil, ever post will be , “I liked our compete.”
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masterhans Reply:
December 7th, 2011 at 8:43 pm
@alphatronic, and dot to board play
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bmova Reply:
December 7th, 2011 at 9:23 pm
@masterhans, And of course playing a “heavy game”!!!
Lake Forest Reply:
December 8th, 2011 at 9:10 am
@neil, I guess we can mention Mike Richards right. Has he been held hostage by the system?
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Thanks again Rich…You really read what people have to say on here and that is refreshing…
I just thought the Kings were better last year and the year before at holding onto the puck during the cycle…and maybe there needs to be some rinkles implied to just that area alone…
All I know is…the Kings are defending for most of the game and then when they get the puck it’s more chase…They are playing chase and chase hockey…not a good way to play and it will burn these players out
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I find it very teling that when Jim Fox said after asking Murray about the system. I quote:
“There are NO handcuffs on the forwards.”
Que this little snippett from the same coach:
“So we loosened up that second forechecker to get in faster, to help support and recover pucks.”
In order to loosen something up, it would have to have been tight in the first place, right?
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wavesinair Reply:
December 7th, 2011 at 6:49 pm
@xeropoint,
Excellent observation.
I guess he’s parsing words. No handcuffs, but plenty of leashes…mostly short ones.
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xeropoint Reply:
December 7th, 2011 at 7:06 pm
@wavesinair, Which, to me, is the big picture problem. Not only for the “system” but for everyone, including the GM to take OFF the training wheels already! Do what must be done.
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CB14 Reply:
December 7th, 2011 at 7:12 pm
@xeropoint, Exactly. There’s no need to keep with a defense (only) mentality when every single player is fully capable of playing defense. Take off the handcuffs that are holding them back and let them be free, knowing full well they all know how to get back and play defense.
Duckbasher Reply:
December 7th, 2011 at 9:16 pm
@wavesinair, Now I won’t be able to sleep tonight because of thinking about Terry Murray, leashes, and handcuffs.
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wavesinair Reply:
December 7th, 2011 at 10:14 pm
@Duckbasher,
Sorry about that! Now I’ll be having nightmares.
Kingsfanone Reply:
December 8th, 2011 at 5:24 am
@Duckbasher,
Geez. I slept fine!
Now, what does that say about me?
nykingfan Reply:
December 8th, 2011 at 5:31 am
@xeropoint,
I don’t get your point…
When he first got here, there was a defensive system put in place that did restrict the forwards…that’s continued until this season when he loosened the reigns on the 2nd forward..where is the double-talk?
We’re not going to have all 3 forwards in the offensie zone below the goal line..You still have defensive responsibilities…it’s not pond hockey!
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Thank you Rich for getting to the bottom of this and getting Murray, Lombardi, and lots of player quotes. I don’t dig that Murray is around, but signaling a coaching change is sort of a white flag. However, so is .475 hockey.
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30th in the league in scoring-and we are suppose to be a cup contending team……not with that stat.
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wavesinair Reply:
December 7th, 2011 at 6:51 pm
@Spidey35,
I’m not saying the Wild are cup contenders either, but they are in first…and they’re 25th in scoring. Not much better. I actually think it’s something else. Lack of identity and leadership come to mind…
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408kingsfan Reply:
December 7th, 2011 at 7:28 pm
@wavesinair, You hit the nail on the head with the identity issue. We are a bruising, grinding, skilled blue collar team. Now we think we are going to win with finnese and speed that we dont have
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Roger Reply:
December 7th, 2011 at 8:02 pm
@408kingsfan, yep we need to cycle alot more. We get more chances, rebounds, and penalties that way.
LittleRhody Reply:
December 7th, 2011 at 8:17 pm
@408kingsfan, While I agree with both of you regarding the identity issue, I think it is exactly the other way around, 408. We WERE a brusing, grinding, skilled blue-collar team, and we were fairly successful playing that way
Now we have the talent and finnesse (and enough speed) to play the more wide-open game but the team/coach can’t decide on which identity fits them.
Once they do, however, look out.. (I hope it’s soon !!)
Duckbasher Reply:
December 7th, 2011 at 9:23 pm
@408kingsfan, This brings me to ask the question… Who’s missing? I mean what one player that we don’t have could bring it all together? Is it an agitator? Westy is a nice guy (I think that says it all, our “enforcer” is a nice guy). Brown doesn’t (can’t?) hit like he used to because he’ll get suspended. We don’t have Ryan Smyth camped out in front of the net anymore (or Zeus or Simmonds). Is this team as good as we had hoped? Trent Hunter? Ethan Moreau? Over Zeus, Poni, Simmonds? DL also needs to look in the mirror. I think he has some ‘splanin to do.
You spin me right round baby right round like a record…it’s all spin..the league has all for the most part changed to a more defensive system yes but not so badly at the cost of their offense. In the words of herb brooks… You don’t only defend them (the other team) you ATTACK them.
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Just to add to Rich’s numbers. While they were 9th in scoring during the 09-10 season, the reason for that high of ranking was due primarily from the Power Play, not the 5 on 5 scoring which everyone talks about.
Here’s where they ranked in 5 on 5 scoring the last 4 years.
11-12 : 30th
10-11 : 17th
09-10 : 18th
08-09 : 30th
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wavesinair Reply:
December 7th, 2011 at 7:02 pm
@CB14,
Nice bookends to a coaching job.
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CB14 Reply:
December 7th, 2011 at 7:04 pm
@wavesinair, We can only hope!
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BakoCAkingsCondorsGuy Reply:
December 7th, 2011 at 7:07 pm
@CB14,
08-09 compared to 11-12?
Talent wise, no comparison…
This Kings team should score, 5 on 5, 4 on 4, on power plays & shorthanded…
The boys know it, too.
Something has to give. It’s just a matter of time.
Kings scoring will start to roll, or heads will roll.
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xeropoint Reply:
December 7th, 2011 at 7:10 pm
@CB14, Which is a nice, graceful way to illustrate what some of us have been saying all along. There’s no reason to expect anything different. History ain’t wrong here!
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I hear BOC in my head…not the “more cowbell” song..but I wonder if the KIngs player hear it…”burn out the day” that’s at the morning skate…and then… “Burn out the night” during the game…Thats what it’s like for me watching this team endlessly chase the puck around all night
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It kinda drives me crazy that no one really addresses the real problem with “the system”. You can throw in a second forechecker with more speed, but if you keep them grinding along the boards or behind the net, it becomes wasted. The problem with the Kings approach is that they are putting themselves along the perimeter, with hardly any rotation into the slot. Most teams that play a similar defensive style to the Kings, still rotate regularly off the boards to help create space for the player grinding out along the boards. If the guy digging out the puck’s only option is to pass to another forward along the boards, no scoring threat is generated. If a pass makes it up to the point, then the shooter has to wait for the guy on the boards to make an attempt at getting some “net presence”. By this time, it’s already too late. This happens on a regular basis every game for the Kings.
Also, most defensive minded teams still push the “short counter”. Tampa Bay is widely known for their trapping style, yet they fully jump into attack on the short counter when they create a turnover. The Kings on the other hand, usually go for the safer play, which is the regroup in their own zone when creating a turnover. This allows other teams to set up a neutral zone trap, and the Kings never post anyone past the redline on breakouts, for fear of being on the wrong side of the puck.
There is definitely an elephant in the room, and nobody wants to say they see it.
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408kingsfan Reply:
December 7th, 2011 at 7:16 pm
@PP Anybody?, Very good observation, frustrating to watch isn’t it?
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xeropoint Reply:
December 7th, 2011 at 7:18 pm
@PP Anybody?, Trust me, I’ve noticed
Handcuffs, anyone?
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CB14 Reply:
December 7th, 2011 at 7:18 pm
@PP Anybody?, I see it.
The thing that I really notice is that even when the Kings do score a 5 on 5 goal, it’s not because of their system. Last night Williams scored off of a lucky bounce off the glass on a clearing attempt that found it’s way to his stick, and VV’s goal came off the rush from Kopi. Neither one of them were because of their cycle.
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BakoCAkingsCondorsGuy Reply:
December 7th, 2011 at 7:46 pm
@CB14,
That’s not luck.
Any successful system will score “fortunate” goals, because players are in the correct position to profit from good bounces.
Kings don’t have enough players in the right places to get these types of goals often enough…
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CB14 Reply:
December 7th, 2011 at 7:50 pm
@BakoCAkingsCondorsGuy, Ok, just trying to say that they weren’t due to the offensive cycle. I know those types of goals are scored all around the league. It would be nice to see more of those goals from the Kings.
jess Reply:
December 7th, 2011 at 8:31 pm
@BakoCAkingsCondorsGuy, the puck went backwards after it hit a vertical glass stile on a clearing attempt. It was one in a million, we were sitting right there. It was a damn lucky bounce.
ta Reply:
December 7th, 2011 at 10:59 pm
@CB14, Totally agree with you. the only time that we score 5 on 5 is either via bad bounce or Richards making something happen
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g smith86 Reply:
December 7th, 2011 at 7:21 pm
@PP Anybody?, Agreed…another thing that is missing(and what other teams seem to be able to do to the Kings) is create turnovers off of the other teams breakout. Kings are spending hardly anytime in the other teams zone…when the puck turns over in the o zone it’s almost like the Kings players say “ok, time for a line change, got to go now” and the next thing you know the other team is in out zone with speed on the attack…Where’s our attack?
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BakoCAkingsCondorsGuy Reply:
December 7th, 2011 at 7:28 pm
@PP Anybody?,
Ever watch Detroit closely?
Their system also starts with the puck along the boards but they spread out to about the diameter of the circle & play it man-to-man. They rarely double the puck offensively, but rely on winning man-on-man battles off the boards. Then the man with the puck flows towards the goal as though he is a skateboarder at the top of the hill & the net is at the bottom. The other forwards are at the correct spacing so no one defenseman can cover two. Timing is beautiful, & often one player will beat his man to the net & get a great scoring opportunity. Outnumbered chances are the frequent result, & players can generate just enough speed from the boards to the net to be dangerous.
This is the portion of the Kings system which has not developed. It is the play in the offensive zone, with correct spacing, winning puck battles then going hard to the net in concert that wins games. The rest are plays off won faceoffs in the offensive zone.
Richards understands this style of play. The rest must elevate to his level to be successful.
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xeropoint Reply:
December 7th, 2011 at 7:32 pm
@BakoCAkingsCondorsGuy, Great observation. Would this be due to Detroit having better coaching or just a decade full of high hockey IQ players? I’m guessing both. But more of one than the other.
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BakoCAkingsCondorsGuy Reply:
December 7th, 2011 at 7:39 pm
@xeropoint,
This is an offensive coaching style which allows Detroit’s top shelf players to thrive & exert dominance.
Now the Kings are talented enough to play at this level. Not too long ago that would’ve been impossible…
Coaching change may be needed.
g smith86 Reply:
December 7th, 2011 at 7:47 pm
@BakoCAkingsCondorsGuy, I hate to talk about Detroit in a good way because although I am fortunate to not have to live there I wish the Kings could have such a long standing record of success…oh,BTW I hate the Redwings…these Wings seem to always be a contender…always finding great diamonds in the rough come draft time…always developing so so players into stars…you wanna talk about a system…why not try to incorporate that one?!!
Always kills me how Detroit is able to skate on to the puck…they pass to open areas and always get the puck! Team speed…you betcha…and their skill level is consistantly the best in the league…it wasn’t too long ago that we were hating on Yzerman and the like…that team is long gone, but it’s like they never skipped a beat…most teams rebuild after that…it seems the Red wings just reloaded
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PP Anybody? Reply:
December 7th, 2011 at 7:58 pm
@BakoCAkingsCondorsGuy, I’ve watched Detroit for a great number of years, and have always admired their approach. Where Murray gets it wrong, is that he doesn’t seem to understand what real puck support is. It seems like he thinks simple numbers(like adding two players in to dig a puck out) is the key. A lot of times, it works better to have someone AWAY from the puck, like Detroit does coming down the slot. This usually creates a situation where the D men battling along the boards have to draw back into the slot to protect homeplate, which then allows the offensive man along the boards more space to dig out the puck and time a pass to the man coming down the slot. It’s worked for years, for several good teams. For the life of me, I don’t get why Murray is afraid of driving players down through the slot. Got to protect against some possible ghost turnovers I must guess..
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pnm Reply:
December 8th, 2011 at 6:42 pm
@BakoCAkingsCondorsGuy, Excellent post.
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crashin'da net Reply:
December 7th, 2011 at 7:34 pm
@PP Anybody?, “with hardly any rotation into the slot”. I’ve been saying this for a long time now. NO ONE is in the slot – parked or cycling or even a Dman flying down the middle once in a while. How many passes did we see just from Penner in the last couple games from behind the net end up on Quick or Bernier’s Stick!!. Even on the PPP NO ONE shoots the slot tot he net! SSHHHEEESSSHHH!
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g smith86 Reply:
December 7th, 2011 at 7:48 pm
@crashin’da net, I here ya…i’m with ya
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brig33 Reply:
December 7th, 2011 at 8:22 pm
@crashin’da net, Yep Thank You! I scream this at my TV every game lol
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Roger Reply:
December 7th, 2011 at 8:03 pm
@PP Anybody?, strongly agree when we cycle no one goes to the middle and there is no threat.
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adanac Reply:
December 7th, 2011 at 8:04 pm
@PP Anybody?, Now your a person who know’s hockey!
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pesus Reply:
December 7th, 2011 at 8:14 pm
@PP Anybody?,
I dont notice alot of the X’s and O’s stuff you guys mention, (I never played organized hockey) but Im sure this post answers why we never get alot of out numbered attacks. specially when we are winning at the end of games when the other teams send their D men up.
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Considering Kopi says, “Everybody is pulling back”, shouldn’t that enable the Kings to open things up since the possibility of an outnumbered attack coming back the other way is that much more unlikely?
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pesus Reply:
December 7th, 2011 at 8:18 pm
@CB14,
I thought the reason for the post lock-out rule changes was to prevent teams from playing the trap. Am I way off here?
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brig33 Reply:
December 7th, 2011 at 8:26 pm
@pesus, only a few teams are playing that “trap”. the teams that play it usually aren’t very skilled, and they usually don’t make the playoffs, if they do they don’t last long. Everyone is talking about it because Tampa uses that 1-3-1, but they stopped lately and now they’re losing (identity crisis, sound familiar?). It’s hard to go from that defense first mentality to an offensive one, not surprised the guys are frustrated, it’s hard for a coach to change his approach and for the guys to not get mixed messages. Hopefully we can turn it around, but if things don’t right themselves soon, it’s time for a change.
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xeropoint Reply:
December 7th, 2011 at 8:27 pm
@pesus, Prevent might not be the right word. More like “discourage”.
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CB14 Reply:
December 7th, 2011 at 8:27 pm
@pesus, Eliminating the red line was supposed to help eliminate the trap, and it mostly succeded. But I think when Kopi says “everybody is pulling back”, he means teams are putting 4 guys along their own blueline and forcing the other team to dump the puck in.
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IceGuy Reply:
December 7th, 2011 at 10:10 pm
@CB14,
You allow the other team’s players to get into position along the Blue Line when you constantly “set up” your breakout. It almost sounds like an oxymoron (look it up), doesn’t it?
Whether you gain control of a puck by digging it out, capturing a rebound or “picking a pocket” – your next move is up ice. Your offensive attack starts right there – in the D zone. The Kings problem seems to be a lack of “first pass aggression” rather than “net presence”. How many times have we seen the Kings cycle the puck in THEIR zone, waiting for whatever it is they are waiting for, and thus allowing the opposition defense to set up across the blue line and wait?
If your first pass up ice is not designed as the start of an attack, then you are usually forced to dump and chase, but there’s nothing to chase now because their defense is already waiting for it. DUMP & CHASE is your LAST option, not an offensive tactic.
Last night I saw Moreau skate thru the neutral zone with speed twice, pull up at the blue line, and dump. The choice is to skate it in and take the possible punishment for the effort, or be safe and dump. Murray is preaching “safe” hockey. Just as his “shot mentality” is safe – hoping for a rebound or a good bounce when shooting from 30′ away.
At the end of the 2nd period, when Kopi drove hard into the crease rather than his usual move behind the net, he took 2 defenders AND the Goalie to the left with him – leaving open ice on the right for VV’s goal. Safe? No. Successful? The Red Light sez yes.
Dot to Boards says safe. Dot to Dot is not. I believe it’s really that simple.
Safe hockey is a style of play that will never, I repeat, never make you a winning team. I hope Terry Murray might consider that in adjusting his “system”.
CB14 Reply:
December 7th, 2011 at 10:23 pm
@IceGuy, Great points. I agree with everything you said.
Michael J. Reply:
December 7th, 2011 at 10:35 pm
@IceGuy,
Well said. I have been wondering why it takes the Kings so long to transition from defense to offense. That first pass has to be quick, up ice, or to someone with speed.
Scot Reply:
December 8th, 2011 at 1:58 am
@Iceguy,
Ditto, great post.
Based on my observation, at this time last year when the puck was deep and needed to be recovered our players would throw a hard check and force the opposing team to cough up the puck and more often then not we would pounce on it like a pack of rabid wolves this would result in good cycle play in the offensive zone. If you fast forward to this year, we seem to dump in and while the opposing team is recovering the puck in the corner we just skate by like its some sort of formality and the other team begins their outlet play up the ice.
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CB14 Reply:
December 7th, 2011 at 7:08 pm
@408kingsfan, They’re in too much of a hurry to get back to playing defense.
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408kingsfan Reply:
December 7th, 2011 at 7:19 pm
@CB14, also, the way Kopi is being double teamed he should not be the one carrying into the zone.He should be the trailer, much more dangerous and effective.
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xeropoint Reply:
December 7th, 2011 at 7:24 pm
@408kingsfan, At the very least, someone else should be open.
g smith86 Reply:
December 7th, 2011 at 7:24 pm
@408kingsfan, The Kings are expending all of their energy defending…they need to figure out a way to turn the table on that…make the other team expend their energy defending…that’s what you saw last year…the ice is tilted this year…in the wrong direction
[Reply]
nykingfan Reply:
December 8th, 2011 at 5:34 am
@408kingsfan,
I kind of agree with you….the Kings are not as physical a team as they were in the past. I don’t see the tough play along the boards in the offensive zone when recovering pucks…not that fighting’s a big part of the game, but we don’t drop the gloves any longer.
I’m not sure why this has changed..
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I havn’t seen so many cry baby, no talkin, bandwagon, fans in my entire life. Rich has done a great job keeping us all informed on our club. He and his crew go the extra mile to make us all feel part of something and all we get is the same old post. The guys in the locker room are pissed off. Of course they want to score more goals. This is the NHL. Every team is good and doing their damndest to stop us from scoring. Being last in the league at anything sucks. BIG TIME!!! We can bitch all we want it’s not going to change a thing. I’m going to watch this team just like every game I’ve watched this year. I want them to win. If they lose, Hell ya I’m pissed. I don’t like to talk about it and I get emotional. Thing is the team don’t pay me, they don’t hear me yelling at them. Does TM feel the pressure? From you guys and gals probably so. Thing is when the Kings beat the Wild most of you will be right back on the wagon. Some of us out here are sticking by this team. I’m sick of the same crap. Of course I want the guys to win. I tried giving my points of view. I’ve hated on TM and it got me no where. We all have the right to what we believe is good for this team. If you don’t like what your seeing on the ice then stop watching. Call me what ever. I could careless. I thing is for sure about me. I may not have the best grammar, nor the highest hockey IQ, but I AM A KINGS FAN! And so are many of you. You all have a right to say and do whatever you like, but it’s getting old. If TM was close to being fired we would know. Some of you even think that Bob has pull with the Kings. It’s all about money and more money. Don’t ever forget about that. Things are at play that we the common fan don’t even know. Remember everything is relative and ownership is Key. Everyone of us has to wake up and realize that Attitude is everything
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wavesinair Reply:
December 7th, 2011 at 7:26 pm
@kinginsaltlake,
Fun robber. Happiness thief.
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xeropoint Reply:
December 7th, 2011 at 7:27 pm
@kinginsaltlake, Ever stop to think that people who are “crying” or “whining” over a topic over and over again is that they too are fans? That they also, care just as much as you do? Just because some folks aren’t cheerleaders come hell or highwater doesn’t make them any less of a fan. You’d do well to remember this.
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Hadley Reply:
December 7th, 2011 at 7:49 pm
@xeropoint, I am a homer for the Kings. I am an unabashed and unashamed cheerleader for the Kings. I distance myself from the nonstop negativity on this site.
I have suffered through decades of dreadful hockey and I so grateful for the current seasons under Coach Murray. The Kings are no longer losers and are no longer the doormats and the laughingstocks they were for so many years. Yes, I was there for Korab, Wells and Hardy.
Now we have some world-class players. Admittedly, two of our best have been struggling. But I saw the President speak yesterday — a stirring return to form. If he can do it, so can Doughty and Kopitar.
Go Kings Go.
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xeropoint Reply:
December 7th, 2011 at 8:00 pm
@Hadley, I cheer for the Kings as loudly as anyone. Ask my neighbors. I also like to discuss the team and it’s success’/ woes without calling people crybabies if I don’t agree or can’t understand what they’re discussing.
CB14 Reply:
December 7th, 2011 at 8:14 pm
@Hadley, I understand where you’re coming from as a lifelong fan, but personally I’m not satisfied with just being better than dreadful. I think most of us, including the players and entire organization, have higher standards then that. Since the level of play has been nowhere near those expectations, I think the negativity on this site is understandable.
Bkrs-Bud Reply:
December 8th, 2011 at 11:23 am
@xeropoint, Or maybe you are fans that like to cry and whine, it doesn’t make you any less of a fan , It just makes you a negative person or persons that just need a hug maybe? Or it might be something only a good Therapist could help with? Or maybe the KINGS can start playing well and winning more than losing,But sadly i still think the negative people would still find something to complain about maybe?
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408kingsfan Reply:
December 7th, 2011 at 7:34 pm
@kinginsaltlake, but I like bitching and whining and I’m never happy, can I still be a Kings fan please please! In fact when we win the cup I don’t know what I will do with myself
I will have nothing more to complain about.
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kinginsaltlake Reply:
December 7th, 2011 at 7:38 pm
@408kingsfan, No you may Not. No more bitching. All nice blog time.
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g smith86 Reply:
December 7th, 2011 at 7:34 pm
@kinginsaltlake, Hey I like your passion and have said that before, but you can’t call out fans of 20 plus years and tell them to stop watching…or stop complaining, for that matter…especially some of the many season ticket holders who have spent a lot of their hard earned money on this team and were expecting a much better result this year…Part of being a fan is pointing out the problems and discussing them…I love the fact that Rich Hammond and the Kings provide us with a vehicle to do so and let us speak our minds…It’s the best blog in the NHL and the Kings organization should be commeneded for having the courage to allow this kind of forum. Sure, the players are frustrated, as well as the fans. That doesn’t mean because you take the high road makes you a better fan. We all have opinions on this blog and you may not agree with them, but everybody is still a fan and entitled to their own feelings even if it differs from yours
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crashin'da net Reply:
December 7th, 2011 at 7:38 pm
@kinginsaltlake, Whoa! Mayube that was some cosmic alien hockey plyer that landed in Area 59 out there in the desert and he’s just about ready to sign as a King??!!
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Sammuch Reply:
December 7th, 2011 at 10:34 pm
@kinginsaltlake, I’m back!
Stay cool my friend! Good points, let’s hope December is something good to remember or else it will be hard for us to make the playoffs. if we don’t start getting 3 goals per game soon!
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Lake Forest Reply:
December 8th, 2011 at 9:14 am
@kinginsaltlake, THANK YOU!!!
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Everyone needs to calm down. Think about it thins way: if that magic chip by Ryan dosent hit 24 skates and shoulders and fall down in the 6 inches between quicks back and the crossbar we go to OT with all the momentum and probably win. Yet we lose on a fluke goal and suddenly it’s the “system” and “TM”. We are not playing very well at all now I agree but for gods sake people, that same exact system and coach has us in decent position in the standings and could have easily won the game last night.
Now we do need more offense and for that we can look at the “system” for possible answers but if one crazy bounce went our way last night nobody wouod be freaking out on here. Yet TM would have still coached the game and still used the same system.
We need to pick up the pace here soon but everyone has to stop having a heart attack when we play a good game (I thought we outplayed them) but still lose. If we got shut out 2-0 then id be as upset as most of u but we didn’t so breatheeeeee.
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kinginsaltlake Reply:
December 7th, 2011 at 7:40 pm
@Cortex949, Thanks buddie. Anyway you can buty me a beer tonight? Folks around here have gotten to me.
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CB14 Reply:
December 7th, 2011 at 7:48 pm
@Cortex949, “Think about it thins way: if that magic chip by Ryan dosent hit 24 skates and shoulders and fall down in the 6 inches between quicks back and the crossbar we go to OT with all the momentum and probably win.” And if the clearing pass by Anaslime doesn’t ricochett off the glass on the clearing attempt and go directly to Justin Williams’ stick, which he then scored with, the Kings still lose. Bad bounces go both ways. You can’t blame them for the loss.
If the Kings offense were any good and the Kings had scored 3 goals in that game, the “lucky” bounce would’ve only tied the game instead of winning it.
You’re right that nobody would be freaking out had the Kings won last night 2-1, but that doesn’t mean that the underlying problem would’ve disappeared. The problem is, and has been for awhile now, the Kings inability to score more than 2 goals a game. 1 win still won’t change that.
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neil Reply:
December 7th, 2011 at 7:56 pm
@CB14, and if the Kings outscored the other team every game..we would be undefeated!!!!!
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Cortex949 Reply:
December 7th, 2011 at 9:29 pm
@CB14, See you present a logical argument and I agree with you for the most part. I also feel we need to be able to score more than 2 goals to be a consistently winning team. What I am trying to say is that we are built and coached to win our games 1-0 , 2-1 , 2-0. When we win those games I feel we played well and played within our system and abilities. When we lose a game 2-1 3-2 1-0 I feel that we were still within our realm of play and it’s just a game lost. Lat night our D really only “allowed” one goal. (one was given away by quick and one a crazy bounce). I don’t feel last nights game is anything that any kings fan should be calling for anyone’s heads on. I do, let me repeat, I DO feel we need more scoring so that these little bounces are make or break moments in the game. But I can’t stand people that think getting rid of TM will result in some magic curse lifted off of us and we will blow everyone out 5-0 every night.
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CB14 Reply:
December 7th, 2011 at 11:45 pm
@Cortex949, I see what you’re saying. I disagree a little bit in that I think this team can also win games 5-3 and 4-2, the problem is what you said, they are coached to win games 2-1 and 1-0.
No one expects to see a 5-0 win every night, but we do expect to be better than 30th in goals per game, especially after the improvements to the top 6 forwards Dean Lombardi made in the off-season.
Not to speak for everyone who’s anti Murray, but I think we all just don’t see that additional scoring coming any time soon under his coaching direction. It’s been just under a third of the way through the season, and at a time when even all the TM supporters said this is when the offense would start to come together, it’s been at it’s worse. The fact that the 5 on 5 offense has been below average every year under TM, and a much improved roster this year compared to previous years, you add those all up and that’s our reasoning behind wanting a coaching change.
xeropoint Reply:
December 7th, 2011 at 7:50 pm
@Cortex949, Sure the vitriol is a tad higher after a loss, but no one (with a cogent argument) is really using last night as a jumping off point for any complaint. Most issues are bigger picture than a lucky bounce. Also, the Kings outplayed the Ducks for 21 minutes of last nights game and were taken out to the shed for 39. We’ll have to agree to diagree about coaching/sytem, etc.
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PP Anybody? Reply:
December 7th, 2011 at 8:17 pm
@Cortex949, The reason why a lot of people are slightly tired of the way things are, is that it ALWAYS comes down to a lucky bounce. It is inherent with such a strictly defensive “system”. If the Kings are not actively pursuing scoring, and are sitting around waiting for the right bounce, and HOPING that Quick stands on his head, and hoping that they don’t have any bad bounces go against them, well then something’s just not right.
Some of us saw some of these same problems well before this season, and well, we’re still waiting for them to be fixed. I’m pretty sure there’s enough billboards around town telling me that “THE TIME IS NOW”. Well then, I for one would like to see some evidence that something will change now.
I agree that beating a dead horse gets old, and I’m guilty of continuing to press on the issue of the scoring woes. It’s just that I really want to see this team do better, NOW, and don’t see much hope of change soon.
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From what DL said about our system, we don’t want to risk our defense to make better offensive play. Do we really have to rely on the system so much to defend our own zone? Is it too risky to let players play freely?
In my opinion, those players in 3rd and 4th lines are afraid of making play. When they make mistakes especially defensively, TM always punish them with demotion. He said he doesn’t handcuff anyone offensively. But he should realize that he is actually handcuffing them by punishing their defensive mistake.
I think too much defensive responsibility is the reason why they cannot score. Why not loosen up a little bit? That may risk our defense but what’s more important now is our players regain their confidence.
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g smith86 Reply:
December 7th, 2011 at 7:54 pm
@goldielocks, hey TM said he took the handcuffs off already
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PP Anybody? Reply:
December 7th, 2011 at 8:23 pm
@goldielocks, I think you are right. Just look at Lokti last night. Guy tries to make one play through the middle of the ice(which TM asked him to do more by the way) which resulted in a turnover, then Murray benched him for the rest of the game. Well, guess what Lokti won’t try and do next game? Take an offensive chance through the high slot. Lastly, the play didn’t even result in any good scoring chance against so what is the big deal? It’s decisions like these that are sucking the offensive life out of this club.
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Duckbasher Reply:
December 8th, 2011 at 9:51 am
@PP Anybody?, – This is exactly the reason the Kings are not scoring. Players need to be allowed to bring “their” game. The one that every scout and coach from Pee Wee on up evaluated and said “bring it” to our team. You can’t stiffle a guy by putting him in the doghouse for making a mistake. If he’s doing something stupid that’s bringing the team down (Sean Avery?) then I can see calling them out. GREAT POST!
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Sammuch Reply:
December 7th, 2011 at 10:36 pm
@goldielocks, Wow that was a good one to think about!
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Coming from the both of you I feel hurt. Not!! Get real I know there are many pissed off fans out there. I’m not saying that their not fans, but it’s the same old crap. Everyone on here gives Poorman a hard time, but is he less of a fan HELL NO. I can be pissed if I want to more at the fans then the team I guess. Call me a cheerlearder again and well meet someday. I care for my team get of my back doctor.
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408kingsfan Reply:
December 7th, 2011 at 7:39 pm
@kinginsaltlake, Yeah and I will buy all the pizza and beer bro
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g smith86 Reply:
December 7th, 2011 at 7:52 pm
@kinginsaltlake, Awe…someone needs a hug…Hehe
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Jason4Kings Reply:
December 7th, 2011 at 8:03 pm
@kinginsaltlake,
In ’93 i flew into Honolulu, HI for work on the day Montreal won the cup, i was so mad at myself for missing that game and beat myself up for weeks. I hadn’t missed watching a game since game one of the Van series. I thought it was my fault, because i used to be young, weird, superstitious and thought everything i did mattered (i was 22). I vowed to never do that again. In ’98 i developed a hatred for Courtnall that bordered on murderous obsession. A few years later i was at Staples for the “stunner” and it was probably the most exciting thing i have ever experienced. I remember waiting to go down the escalator after the game and the whole place seemed to be shaking with what seemed like millions of people screaming “GO KINGS GO”, it felt INCREDIBLE, even SCARY, in a good way. The girl i was with actually accused me of being gay for Adam Deadmarsh that year. A couple seasons back, when they made the playoffs for the first time in forever and were facing Vancouver, my wife and i had tickets and hotel booked and paid to go to Jamaica right around the time of the third round, for a close friend’s wedding. I told my wife if the Kings win the Vancouver series, i ain’t going, i’m staying home for my team. That didn’t go over well. Obviously i went to Jamaica, but don’t think there wasn’t a little marital tension during that series. I bet there are many similar stories going back even further than i do from people who comment on this site, you probably have some as well. Anyway, my point is, we can complain if we want. We’ve all earned it.
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g smith86 Reply:
December 7th, 2011 at 8:18 pm
@Jason4Kings, That is awesome! I hated courtnall too…ran our goalie and wasn’t it Odonald who got the major for beating the crap out of courtnall for running our goalie….I think Koharsky was the ref that night and a friend of mine who was at the game told me he got hit with a puck thrown from somebody in the stands at the end of the game Oh BTW, that was a playoff game in which the Kings were up(i believe) 3 zip in the third and lost the game 4 to 3 to the blues…just FYI for the new Kings fans out there
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Jason4Kings Reply:
December 7th, 2011 at 9:00 pm
@g smith86, Odonell sounds right.
ta Reply:
December 7th, 2011 at 9:46 pm
@Jason4Kings, nice post, thanks for reminding me of one of my fondness Kings memories. Loved that 2002 Kings team too bad inquires got in our way. I’ve been to hundreds of games @ staples and the loudest i’ve ever heard it there was when Deadmarsh and the Kings upset the Wings, and after Horry hit that 3 pointer to beat the Sac. KIngs. It felt like the building was actually rocking! I also remember not being able to talk for a couple of days as i lost my voice from all the screaming. I also remember talking to Jim Hill (CBS) in the old parking lot where LA LIVE is now and he couldn’t believe how CRAZY it was there.
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Steve W Reply:
December 8th, 2011 at 12:49 am
@ta, I hated that Horry shot!
xeropoint Reply:
December 7th, 2011 at 8:05 pm
@kinginsaltlake, It’s all good, my friend. But c’mon, you gotta expect a response if you start a post with:
“I havn’t seen so many cry baby, no talkin, bandwagon, fans in my entire life.”
Sometimes people take offense to being called names, just sayin’
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Can we bring Fro’back already. At least he was a beast when it came to puck possession in the offensive zone.
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g smith86 Reply:
December 7th, 2011 at 7:57 pm
@deedub, Where is that dude… CHL?
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408kingsfan Reply:
December 7th, 2011 at 8:16 pm
@deedub, I never had anything negative to say about Frolov.
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thrustable Reply:
December 7th, 2011 at 8:19 pm
@408kingsfan, you obviously have a short memory.
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408kingsfan Reply:
December 7th, 2011 at 9:23 pm
@thrustable, I remember being gauranteed 20 plus goals a season from Frolov. I remember that really well.
thrustable Reply:
December 7th, 2011 at 8:19 pm
@deedub, Fro was a beast about once every 7-8 games. There were long stretches of games where he was a total non factor. That’s what made him so frustrating, he had the ability but he just didn’t bring it night after night. Don’t forget that.
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brig33 Reply:
December 7th, 2011 at 8:32 pm
@deedub, Plus he can rock a sick cardigan LOL. If that doesn’t qualify him for this team I dont know what does.
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The system before the season started was code name “handcuffs” and now that no one can score it has been renamed code name “handcuffs off”
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Kopitar’s answer was not encouraging…. He doesn’t really address the Kings’ scoring but gives general thoughts on league trends. I wonder if he’s happy with our style.
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This is the same system that we used when we were top 10 in scoring 2 years ago. We have better players now than then. We shoot consistently from the point, the slot, one timers, wrap arounds, jam attempts and nothing goes in. The system puts us in a position to be a top 5 defensive team. The responsibility lies with the players. With exceptions like that dud against the oilers, we are in position to succeed.
I know its frustrating, but if we were not getting scoring chances and not shooting the puck then I would blame the system…however the chances ARE there, the players just got to finish.
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xeropoint Reply:
December 7th, 2011 at 8:35 pm
@thrustable, I don’t know. That one year we were 9th in goals for seems more like an abberation when you weigh it against the other 3 years when it has been bottom five. Definitely a lot of responsibility on the players’ shoulders. No one questions this.
That 9th in scoring year coincided with career years out of Kopitar, Doughty and Simmonds and, as CB14 mentioned, a great 7th ranked PP.
Also, very strongly disagree about any Kings shooting from the slot
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CB14 Reply:
December 7th, 2011 at 8:36 pm
@thrustable, We were never in the top 10 in 5 on 5 goals though. Look at my post higher on this page, the only reason we were that high was because of the Power Play. The highest the Kings have been with Terry Murray’s system is 18th in 5 on 5 scoring. That’s not good.
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One more thing….if TM is fired, who do we replace him with. The Ducks fired their coach because they knew Boudreau was available.
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I think it’s about influence and leadership. We’ve heard it from other teams, “The players weren’t responding to the coach.”
I like TM. I think he’s a fine coach and I’m even gratful for the past few years. However, the players aren’t responding. Everyone is saying the right thing, but there’s no belief – the deep down in your heart kind of belief.
DL was talking about it in his interview; the “Thank God I scored” vs. the “You’re damn right I scored.”
There has to be a change made in leadership. They aren’t available, but two coaches I’d like here are guys (who are quite opposite) like Tort’s and Tippet. (Dan Bylsma in my fantasy)
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thrustable Reply:
December 7th, 2011 at 8:34 pm
@Bama Kings, I think the players are frustrated because they can’t score, not because they don’t like TM. With almost every game they have had the same type of scoring chances that their opponents have had, and yet while their opponents score on them, the Kings cannot…don’t know what the system has to do with that.
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xeropoint Reply:
December 7th, 2011 at 8:39 pm
@thrustable, “With almost every game they have had the same type of scoring chances that their opponents have had”
Maybe I’m watching the wrong Kings?
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Jason4Kings Reply:
December 7th, 2011 at 8:41 pm
@Bama Kings,
I don’t think there’s a single person here who wouldn’t welcome back Dave Tippett. Not available.
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DesertKing Reply:
December 7th, 2011 at 9:19 pm
@Jason4Kings,
I think he would be perfect after watching what he did at Dallas and Phoenix.
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It takes time to transition.
We are currently in the middle of transitioning from the team we have been for the last 10 years — into the team that we are going to end up being for the next 10 years. It’s a process, and I think we at a fan level need the same thing the players and the coaches need — and that’s patience.
Mr. Murray is in the process of changing the system to better fit the players — again — this doesn’t happen overnight. We have more skill on this team then Mr. Murray is accustomed to coaching, and he needs to learn to let the skill guys work their creative magic. I think he is (very slowly) learning this.
Anyone who’s watched the games from the beginning of the season to now will have seen us switching to a more aggressive system. But it takes time to teach the players how to make those reads — and as Dustin Brown said in an earlier interview, it takes a lot of repitition before those reads become automatic.
So the team is transitioning — and because of it, sometimes the players look lost, and we aren’t winning a bunch of games. But I’m glad Mr. Murray is pushing the players out of their comfort zone (being so defensive minded) — once the players find a new level of comfort balancing a more aggressive game with their defensive responsiblities — we will be skyrocketing up the standings.
(that’s the only decent excuse I could think of)
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xeropoint Reply:
December 7th, 2011 at 9:04 pm
@CabbagesAndKings, You lost me at “It takes time”. Nice try
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CabbagesAndKings Reply:
December 7th, 2011 at 9:14 pm
@xeropoint, Thanks — I try and stay optimistic.
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KFII Reply:
December 7th, 2011 at 9:42 pm
@CabbagesAndKings, It works for me.
transition to the unemployment line TM.
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Well, I am not an expert on 1-3-1 versus the forecheck with an outlet tape-to-tape pass from the back side pressuring defenseman (huh?). I do know that I watch a lot of Kings games, both on TV and at Staples. While watching those games, I do notice the following:
1. We always seem to be outplayed
2. We are usually a step behind
3. We can’t hit the net
4. We don’t recognize the developing offensive play from the opponent (aka Dallas)
5. Other teams seem to have a plan that completely shuts us down
6. We don’t seem to be capable of adjusting to the other teams adjustments
7. We rarely put togehter a full 60 minutes
8. Our players rarely seem to be on the same page and playing with any chemistry
For some of the earlier posters, this is not negativity, it is the truth. The numbers show it and our own eyes show it. Fans don’t “cheer” for failure. Coaches and players don’t get paid to lose. We support our team through thick and thin, but you can’t ask me to like losing or poor play. We have known and acknowledged our offensive problems for the past 3 years, DL has acquired players to address it, yet the problem persists. Don’t mistake “frustration” for “negativity.” The fact that so many Kings fans come to this site and talk about Kings hockey is a credit to the team and the fans themselves. I think for most fans, they are tired of “hoping” and would prefer the new status of Kings fans which is “expecting.” GKG!!
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xeropoint Reply:
December 7th, 2011 at 9:08 pm
@DesertKing, Booyah!
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CB14 Reply:
December 7th, 2011 at 9:09 pm
@DesertKing, Here here!
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Kingsfanone Reply:
December 8th, 2011 at 5:49 am
@DesertKing,
Rack this guy!
Great post!
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Scot Reply:
December 8th, 2011 at 8:46 am
@DesertKing,
Nice DK!
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SLIM Reply:
December 8th, 2011 at 3:36 pm
@DesertKing,
Copy that!!
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hearing from DL today Im pretty sure TM is not going anywhere. So Im done with the TM bashing. Its not helping and seems to be pissing a lot of people off. So Im gonna try and stay positive. (I said try). We all have one thing in common, we are all die hard kings fans and want to win more than anything. Lets keep our fingers crossed and hope they can turn things around. Im sure there have been teams worse than us after 26 games and have finished strong. Hopefully at the end of the season we can look back at this and laugh, “remember when we were under .500 and you wanted TM fired?”, yeah, thank god Im not the GM”……..thats half full right?
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xeropoint Reply:
December 7th, 2011 at 9:23 pm
@pesus, I will be the first to eat a heaping helping of crow if this team makes it into the 2nd round. Don’t see it happening, but there it is.
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Sancho Reply:
December 7th, 2011 at 11:29 pm
@xeropoint, I doubt that’ll happen. Not this year at least. This team blows goats- I have proof.
Signed,
Frustrated Kings fan
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there will a trade before murray is fired, he is DL’s boy and getting rid of him would make DL look bad.it’s an ego thing and we the season ticketholder will suffer.
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jonsey Reply:
December 7th, 2011 at 10:54 pm
@ziggy99, I think he does have an ego, but it goes to TM after a loss -he’s never going to say it was his fault because it makes him look bad=no job. DL can’t say they went off plan ever (he’s dumped a few coaches before) because that means he is replaceable. Just remember that much of DL’s tenure has been marred by loserdom.
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The coach seems to have no passion. I’m not talking about yelling and screaming all the time. I’m talking about having a fire inside. There’s no doubt he’s knowledgable and is at least partially responsible for the team’s defensive excellence. But leadership is more than X’s and O’s and this goes for being a parent, a boss, a teacher and, in this case, an NHL coach. This is an emotional game. That’s why we all love it. It just oozes passion when it’s played right. You can’t win unless you embrace this in your paradigm. Look up that famous picture of The Rocket. His eyes seem to be burning. Listen to Boston’s coach in one of his post game interviews. He doesn’t yell or scream but there’s a fire underneath those jowls. They have a great unified team and they’re so confident about their ability as a team. And I believe that they’re no more talented than the Kings as individuals. It’s just that when they play they seem to care so much, they seem to be so united. I credit the coach. At this point I believe we need someone like him.
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I’d like to address each one of these guys individually here:
KOPI – Stop and think why Anaheim plays the 1-4 trap. It’s because their defense BLOWS right now. The HAVE to play the 1-4 until they get back Visnovsky and their kids mature. Did you notice something else? Their kids like Smith Pelley have NO FEAR in jumping up in an offensive play at ANY TIME! The forwards are prepared for it also. You experienced firsthand the tenacious forecheck of the Ducks. Why can’t we do that? Right…defense first. The Ducks skate faster and work harder than we do. WHY?
DD – Canned answer unfortunately and it makes you look bad. You have 2 goals. If you are the caliber player you say you are, missing training camp should be no excuse at this point. I’ve seen you try to take control once in a while, that’s good. I think you should tell your forwards you are going to make that more of a habit than a though and to cover you when you drive the line with speed. If you’re going to take control, DO IT, don’t 1/2 do it. I would prefer that from now on, the only time you mention ‘we’ or ‘team’ is when you are talkign about winning. When you mention ‘picking things up’ or ‘playing better’, JUST MENTION YOURSELF! That goes for EVERYONE on this team. That way, you’ll never be tempted to wait for someone else to improve, just yourself.
TM – Why is the second support guy almost ALWAYS a step or two behind the first forechecker on attack? Did you watch the Ducks last night at all? I would CONSTANTLY see 2 forwards in at the same time. The attack ALWAYS seems to be in sync. (Coincidence that they don’t change up their first two lines very much so they can get comfortable with each other’s timing to do so?) every time we dump & chase or attempt a forecheck, 8 out of 10 times the second forward is behind the first. You know NHL D-men only need a sliver of time to make their first pass out of the zone, so why give it to them so often? Crash 2 guys SIMULTANEOUSLY and if the puck squirts out, make them skate their butts off to get back defensively! While you’re at it, let your Puck moving d-men loose and warn your forwards to watch for it. Get your D- to move the puck up ice faster when it’s at our goal line so you have some options in the neutral zone. SO many times their D- has the chance to set up because we’re taking coffee breaks behind the net trying to gain speed. When the opposition is playing a 1-4 trap like Anaheim was, you KNOW that wasted time and ensuing rush is gonna end up in a dump & chase. GET CREATIVE ON THE BREAKOUTS! You know we have the talent, let it show!
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Scot Reply:
December 8th, 2011 at 9:02 am
@Cynic,
I don’t have the energy to write out good, long posts like this (or the ability, lol), but as usual, great job breaking it down, & in a way to make it easy to understand. It’s exactly what the successful teams in the NHL are good at doing. Breaking out quick. Get their forwards caught behind the play.
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Everyone said great things, bottom line if we can’t do better 5 on 5, we will always be bottom 5 in offense! Not even the wild can win come playoff time if they can’t get to 3 goals per game avg…
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RICH,
Defensive system isn’t what the fans are clamoring about the most. It’s the offensive system and the details within it. If you can address it in specifics with the coach and players, that would be great.
It’s the constant – “shot mentality” and “front net presence” – that people can’t stand and believe stifles creativity.
1) Shot mentality: The fans hate this term b/c the way the Kings seem to interpret it on the ice is shoot from wherever. The problem w/ shot mentality is that it’s not prime scoring chance shot mentality. Shooting the puck from the blueline or along the boards are low-percentage shots. Hell, even the blasted NBA discusses high vs. low-percentage shots. From between the dots to the crease is where the majority of shots should be coming from. There is a lack of movement in the center of the offensive zone. There should be someone near the top of the slot, not just hanging around the goaltender. Also, Voynov at any time (and Johnson when on the powerplay) seem to be the only defenders willing to go to the weak side, looking for the backdoor play.
2) Point shots: It seems the Kings are mostly content with getting shots from the point. Most teams know that’s what we’re going to do so they play high on the points. There are more blocked shots than shots on goal. PLUS there are more missed shots than shots on goal. Cycling around near the boards just to get a low-percentage shot from the point that will more than likely be blocked or missed isn’t cutting it. Murray seems to favor that as high percentage because of traffic for the goaltender or you look for the rebound. But this shouldn’t be Plan A for shots.
3) Zone entry: I think this is affected by the new “system” where the team has been spread out through the neutral zone. We’re seeing longer passes out of the defensive zone, but still seeing 1 forechecker take on 3 backcheckers to dig out the puck from the boards in the offensive zone. That 2nd forechecker Murray is talking about isn’t enough. This team doesn’t have the speed to play the dump and chase. We rarely come out with the puck. Most of the time to maintain possession, the kings skate in, drop the puck to the point and start from there. This only allows the defenders to set up zone defense.
It’s good to have different strategies in your arsenal, but this is all that’s been engrained in the team and all that’s being used. I do not count goals that are due to the other team’s turnovers, which is more fortunate (see Williams’s goal against the Ducks). Let’s start with these points for changing the offensive system.
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CB14 Reply:
December 7th, 2011 at 11:15 pm
@m, Regarding question’s 1 and 2, I agree with you and don’t like it, but what do you want Rich to ask about them? Terry Murray believes that most of the goals come from point shots with a man in front of the net to bang in the rebounds. That’s what TM has said regarding why that’s his offensive system. The players will never say anything negative about that system as long as Terry Murray is still their coach, and likely won’t say anything negative about it after he’s not their coach.
The 3rd forechecker will also never happen as long as TM is head coach because he, and DL for that matter, believe in a defense first mindset. The whole home plate mindset that Rich just mentioned.
I’m not saying I disagree with your complaints about the system, in fact I agree with pretty much all of them, just saying that there’s not really any answer from TM or his players that will appease all of us.
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It is apparent to me that the real problem is the team spends too much time practicing hockey. They need to spend more time practicing answers to satisfy the people on this board.
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CB14 Reply:
December 8th, 2011 at 12:06 am
@Choralone, Here’s a recent conversation I had with Terry Murray, with a PR guy nearby.
CB : Terry Murray, did you order your players to have a shot mentality?
PR : You don’t have to answer that question.
TM : I’ll answer the question.
TM : You want answers?
CB : I think I’m entitled to.
TM : You want answers?
CB : I want the truth.
TM : You can’t handle the truth.
TM : Son, we live in a world that has nets, and those nets have to be guarded by men with sticks. Who’s gonna do it? You? You, puck73? I have a greater responsibility than you could possibly fathom. You weep for a puck possesion offense, and you curse the shot mentality. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know. That a shot mentality offense, while tragic, probably saves goals. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves goals. You don’t want the truth because deep down in places you don’t talk about on the blog, you want me behing that bench, you need me behind that bench. We use words like heavy, compete, net presence. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending the net. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very coaching that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a stick, and man a position. Either way, I don’t give a damn what you think you are entitled to.
CB : Did you order the shot mentality?
TM : I did the job I…
CB : Did you order the shot mentality?
TM : You’re Goddamn right I did.
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King Doughnuts Reply:
December 8th, 2011 at 5:46 am
@CB14, +++++++1
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Bones Reply:
December 8th, 2011 at 6:50 am
@CB14, Great!
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as fans we must realize that we’re buying a product, not just a brand. right now, our product is a defensive style that is not very exciting to watch. while the players may be upset for not finishing the few chances that they get (Brown’s thoughts several days ago) as a fan, I don’t care. it’s not important to me if we finish every chance-goalies don’t give up every good scoring opportunity.
the point is this: we need more chances. we do not need more shots from the point. we do not need more cycling-three guys on the boards nowhere near the net is like watching the tea cups at magic mountain and equally nauseating. NHL PLAYERS NEED NOT DUMP AND CHASE 80% OF THE TIME. and worse, the majority of our goals lifted me out of my feet because of the extended durations between them instead of seeing something truly awe-inspiring. something only an NHLer could accomplish. is that our product though? not yet.
It’s boring, but let’s be real. As much as losing sucks watching us win 1-0 and 2-1 isn’t that great to watch either. So let’s can the speeches about how good our defense is, the Kings just are not as good as we hoped and we’re most likely a middle of the pack team that plays six months straight of grinding playoff hockey.
my hope is that they save it for the playoffs and start having fun out there. until then…i may just pay a little less attention and stop aggravating myself. if i want to see dump and chase hockey, i can go watch some bantams for much money and a lot more goals.
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silk Reply:
December 8th, 2011 at 9:52 am
@furrylats, I wouldn’t mind watching them cycle the puck now-a-days. It seems like all we do now is;
1. Play D,
2. DUMP and change shifts.
3. Repeat steps 1 and 2.
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The absolute bottom line is this: Kings score 3 goals or more they win…..period!
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Andrew: The second coming Reply:
December 8th, 2011 at 1:47 am
@SpencerMaze, Thats exactly what the numbers indicate.
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I had a nightmare that TM was still the coach of the Kings.
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I think DD said it perfectly..the coaching staff is encouraging them to be more offensive, but it’s up to the players on the ice to do the job.
My personal feeling is the biggest problem is not connecting on the breakout pass in the neutral zone…too many pucks are going off forwards sticks..once that happens you can’t enter the zone with any speed so you have to dump it in.
Some of that has to do with the “trap” being played by other teams, but some of it falls on the players…accept the pass in stride and move forward with speed into the offensive zone.
One other point that I’ve noticed.
Other than Brown, how many times do yous e forwards try to be creative in the offensive zone? Now before you all blame TM for this, why is Dustin Brown the only guy trying to make moves with the puck in the O zone? If this was discouraged by Murray, why is Brown doing it?
We have skilled players like Kopi, Gagne, etc..they need to use their skill with the puck on their stick.
My last point is the play..or lack thereof of Loktionov.
I can’t be more diappointed in his performance…I don’t care who you are playing with..he was brought up to play an offensive game. It’s been offensive, but the wong kind (stinks).
He’s had the puck on his stick in the offensive zone, but never creates anything for his wingers or make moves to get a shot off in a good shooting position.
Again, you can all blame the coach, but this one is on the player.
Bak to my point above…If Brownie can try and be creative in the Offensive zone, so can the other players when they have the puck on their stick.
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SpencerMaze Reply:
December 8th, 2011 at 7:36 am
@nykingfan, Great analysis nykingfan!
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Capt Jam Reply:
December 8th, 2011 at 7:54 am
@nykingfan,
I guess it’s all relative: what qualifies as “creative” for Brown is par for guys like Gagne, Richards and Kopitar. Despite his occasional efforts to push the envelope, I see Brown as more of a garbage collector than a standalone scoring threat like the other three. I’d rather see Brown pass the puck 75% of the time when he pushes toward the goal, but the guy has the most gratuitous lack of a passing touch of our top 6 (and possibly top 12). His passes are usually shotgun blasts regardless of the distance or situation.
Agree with you on Loktionov. I’m stunned by his 180 this season. I’m perplexed how one of the few players who could flourish on TM’s system is now as handcuffed as our top players. Sounds like he’s ready to bust out for another team, much like the other players we’re not supposed to mention around these parts. LOL.
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nykingfan Reply:
December 8th, 2011 at 8:03 am
@Capt Jam,
I haven’t seen Gagne or Kopi try and make moves around the defense while in the offensive zone…Brown does. sometimes it doesn’t work, but he’s got a knack for stickhandling around a Defemseman and getting a good scoring opportunity. YOu have to pick your spots to do it, but I’d like to see the others at least try..Richards has done it as well.
I hear what you’re saying and I wouldn’t discard him for nothing..if there’s a trade that can improve the club using Lokti, I would have no problem with it.
Very disappointed in his play. I think he needs to trust his hands and skill…Because we’re not scoring a lot of guys are afraid to try things in the offensive zone..it’s time they use their skill and create!
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Bones Reply:
December 8th, 2011 at 8:57 am
@nykingfan, I remember when Guy Lafleur came into the league, he was young and under tremendous pressure. He underperformed for a few years before busting out. I’m not saying Loktionov is the next Lafleur but I think with a player like this (don’t forget, he’s just 21) you need to be patient. It doesn’t help that the entire time stinks on offense right now.
nykingfan Reply:
December 8th, 2011 at 12:54 pm
@Bones,
you know what?
You’re right and I’m wrong. We do need to show patience with our young kids..especially the talented ones. It may hurt us in the short term, but will help long term.
The veterans are the guys thyat should be shouldering the load.
Duckbasher Reply:
December 8th, 2011 at 10:04 am
@nykingfan, Yea, telling the D to be more offensive, but then at the same time telling them that they’ll be in TM’s doghouse if they mess up. We have the best (or at least one of the best) goalies in the NHL. Let our men use their skills.
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nykingfan Reply:
December 8th, 2011 at 12:52 pm
@Duckbasher,
I don’t know that’s the case
None of us know the reason Lokti wasn’t out there in the 3rd. We’re all assuming it was because of a turnover.
I don’t recall the time of the game that the turnover took place, but games are won and lost on bad turnovers.
I think it had to do with other things, including his lack of beng noticed for the most of the game.
We have the best goalie in the NHL (arguably..but as Kings fans, he is) because the D with the help of the forwards take aweay the 2nd chance rebounds..they clear the front of bodies so the goalie can see the puck. They have a 3rd forward high to take away the odd man rushes It’s not all JQ you should know that!
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Bkrs-Bud Reply:
December 8th, 2011 at 11:31 am
@nykingfan, A wise man in the east you are.
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Don’t know if anyone has mentioned it but what happened to the Kopi that used to drive to the net with the puck. Looks to me like he has seams this year but will skate behind the net looking for a set up pass rather than go in for the score. Is this a system issue, fear for the ankle, or something else? I still think Kopi is a beast and almost always the best player on the ice…just wondering why he took that out of his game. So disappointed in this season so far but I guess my expectations were too high. I have readjusted them so hopefully I can cut back on the glycerine pills and pack up my defibrilator.
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question..I heard in two different interviews…Move the puck up the ice quickly…..keep the puck on your stick longer…….Is this for two different situations?? or is it confusing the players??? Help me on this one..
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Scot Reply:
December 8th, 2011 at 9:04 am
@neil,
Move the puck up the ice quickly from the D-zone. Keep the puck on your stick a little longer in the O-zone, while on the cycle, giving your teammate more of a chance to get open. We aren’t talking about holding the puck for an extra 6 seconds. More like an extra half a second.
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I just received a copy of the speech TM will be giving to the team before tonights game. It’s new and exciting (just like TM is). Here it is;
1. Keep moving your feet boys.
2. We need more of a “shot mentality”.
3. Get the puck deep.
4. Do not change our “D” one iota (per the Big Guy upstairs..DL)
5. Quick, you better play your ass off again because you know that we are only going to score one goal…again.
Go get ‘em boys.
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This has nothing to do with their lack of production on offense. There are plenty of teams, Phi, Bos, Van, to name a few who don’t seem to be having much of a problem with the “league wide defensive strategy”. Are Boston’s top 6 that much more skilled than LA’s? But forget about the top 3 offensive teams in the league. You might say the Kings aren’t quite elite. How does a team like Min, Mon, or Stl score more goals per game than the Kings? it doesn’t make sense. If you want to blame it on the Kings shot mentality that won’t work either. Philadelphia, who supposedly plays the same offensive style as the Kings only averages 2.5 more shots per game than the Kings. Do those 2.5 shots really translate into 1.5 goals? I find that very hard to believe. Are their D-men just better shots from the point? With boy-wonder Drew Doughty on the blue line, joined by Jack Johnson, and a clearly offensively-gifted Slava Voynov how can one argue that the players haven;t been doing a good job? It just doesnt add up. That leaves one explanation. Have to fire the coach, if only to shake up the players. Terry Murray’s time is done in LA. He’s taught the young players a grea deal about defense and the home-plate mentality, but I think he has taken this team as far as they can go. As a die-hard Kings fan it pains me to say this, but I eagerly await the Kings’ inevitable losing streak, that will force Lombardi to make the move he has inexplicably delayed making.
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What about in game adjustments?
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Everyone, and I mean everyone, has tough times. I am not fully satisfied with the won/loss record but I also realize that we have been in virtually every single game. WHEN this team starts to connect all the dots they will be dominant. This is a anomaly, which will get solved by the only people who can solve it, is a matter of better individual effort within a structure of team play. We have missed many many very good scoring chances. The team must get desperately hungry to score sweaty goals, not just the silky smooth tic tac toe goals. The team must fight through. I don’t go along with the idea that the management is in disarray or that we don’t have the horses to pull this team to the next level. This is a drought. After a drought the floodgates open.
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fsd1 Reply:
December 8th, 2011 at 4:46 pm
@anonandonanon, Nice post. +1
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If “shot mentality” works so great then why are Kings 30th in scoring?
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