Slava Voynov seems to be getting the longest look on defense in the absence of Drew Doughty. Voynov will get his third preseason game tonight, and Terry Murray recently said he believed Voynov to be “ahead’’ of Thomas Hickey in terms of readiness to grab an NHL spot. Tonight, Voynov is scheduled to partner with Davis Drewiske, as Willie Mitchell gets the night off. Dean Lombardi declined trade offers for Voynov last year, and reviews were strong for Voynov in the preseason opener against Phoenix. This morning, Murray was asked for his thoughts on Voynov’s game on Sunday against Anaheim…
MURRAY: “He was good. He’s feeling his way along. I feel our forwards needed to be a lot better, to help our young defensemen out. I think we’re sniffing a little bit, trying to create some turnovers in the middle of the ice. It’s not the right time, the right place. Our forward, now, gets lost and we’re under stressed attacks, 3-on-2s and even four coming. I think, with young defensemen like Hickey and Voynov and Campbell here, and you’ve got Martinez with a year under his belt, the way that we’re playing, as a forward group right now, makes it hard on these young guys. That will be my pregame talk here tonight, the importance of doing things right, staying with the structure, getting your foundation in place.
“You’ve got to come back and help your defensemen on a more consistent basis than what we did in that game against Anaheim. I thought we turned a lot of pucks over, and the reason for it is the lack of support. The D-men need the forwards, right now, in order to get the puck moving, and (the Ducks) were coming at us pretty aggressively. So, I guess the short answer is, it was kind of difficult to evaluate how that individual is playing, because it is a team game and the forwards were leaving the D out to dry in some situations.’’
team chemistry… when we get it we will be great!
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fuzzerson Reply:
September 27th, 2011 at 1:28 pm
@Stuart, Without Chemistry, life itself is impossible.
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dcaps55 Reply:
September 27th, 2011 at 2:25 pm
@fuzzerson, The force is strong with this one.
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I say give Voynov some experience and sit Doughty if/when he gets signed. Stop being a diva Drew, get to camp.
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MadMatt Reply:
September 27th, 2011 at 12:26 pm
@jack, …or just stand up to your meanny of an agent… I’m guessing at 21 yrs old you are probably intimidating to go against him. Hey, no problem, pull a Bobby Ryan…fire Meehan, go around him, and sign your contact now, and we can all forget this drama and chalk it up to youth.
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Shotongoal Reply:
September 27th, 2011 at 12:57 pm
@jack, yeah that would make a lot of sense to “sit” your franchise, $6+ million a year D-man.
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jack Reply:
September 27th, 2011 at 5:24 pm
@Shotongoal, but right now he’s nothing. LAST year, a $6 million dollar a year D-Man that played like a 2.5 mil. Right now he’s nothing w/o a contract.
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Bingram Reply:
September 27th, 2011 at 1:02 pm
@jack,
Drew will almost certainly be sitting for a while when he comes back. After all, what are the chances that when he signs he will be in shape and ready to play?
But first things first, come on Drew sign the contract.
Go Kings, go.
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KC23 Reply:
September 27th, 2011 at 2:38 pm
@jack, The moment DD signs and gets back Voynov will have his plane ticket back to Manchester.
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number 6 Reply:
September 27th, 2011 at 3:56 pm
@jack,
He isn’t a diva. I’ve heard that he’s not a very good singer at all.
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Player-X Reply:
September 27th, 2011 at 4:24 pm
@number 6, aria sure?
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Brownkingsfan Reply:
September 27th, 2011 at 4:27 pm
@Player-X, I’ve heard Westgarth pulls a good “Piano Man.”
Brownkingsfan Reply:
September 27th, 2011 at 4:26 pm
@jack, Stop being so emotional. DD will never ride the bench. When he signs, we will all be relieved, and all will be forgiven. The only person in the Kings organization who hopes Drew DOESN’T sign is Voynov. I think Voynov has great potential, but he still needs some experience!
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jack Reply:
September 27th, 2011 at 5:23 pm
@Brownkingsfan, If you think I dont want him to sign you’re foolish. I’m just saying DD had a mediocre season at best, just like Voynov his potential requires experience, although DD’s potential may be far beyond Voynov’s. Just he and his agent being petulant little sh**s and holding back an important piece of the teams’ puzzle for 200K more a year.
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I agree with Voynov over Hickey. Hickey was relatively invisible on Sunday and you at least noticed Voynov, he was involved and trying to make some plays. It just seems like Hickey is not going to be a fit.
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Big Rob in Dallas Reply:
September 27th, 2011 at 12:49 pm
@MadMatt, What do you think we can get for Hickey in a trade? Is he worth a 1st round pick? I can see a late first rounder but more realistically I think the best would be a 2nd.
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Shotongoal Reply:
September 27th, 2011 at 1:03 pm
@Big Rob in Dallas, why would a team give up a 1st, or a 2nd, or for that matter even a 3rd round pick for a player that hasn’t made the Kings’ roster? Realistically, the Kings would be lucky to get a 4th or 5th rounder. But, why trade him now with so many things up in the air? He actually has looked good in camp and in preseason games, so he might be nice insurance to have at Manchester if he’s needed with the big club. I don’t understand some people’s urgency in trading away players, and I’ve said this before here, many times, this is NOT a fantasy league or NHL12!
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Big Rob in Dallas Reply:
September 27th, 2011 at 1:22 pm
@Shotongoal, My reasoning was that he was drafted 4th overall and we are very deep at D. He’s had some injuries that have set him back in his development. I admit a first rounder in highly unlikely but maybe a team needs to replenish their depth and he appears to be on the cusp of making the team.
Shotongoal Reply:
September 27th, 2011 at 2:00 pm
@Shotongoal, that’s why I would not trade him or any other D prospect right now, there’s too much up in the air with the Doughty situation. Having him available in case of non-productive play by others and/or injuries is more valuable to the team right now than a mid to late round pick.
Weasel Reply:
September 27th, 2011 at 1:06 pm
@Big Rob in Dallas,
I can’t imagine anyone would offer better than a 4th. If he isn’t good enough to break into the roster and if he’s now at the age when 1st rounders are beginning to get NHL icetime his value to the Kings is obviously not so high. And other teams can see that as well.
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MadMatt Reply:
September 27th, 2011 at 1:09 pm
@Weasel, I agree, however, maybe we can go to the market claiming we are so deep in D prospects that we are willing to make some moves. It’s true and it’s worth a shot.
Bill M. Reply:
September 27th, 2011 at 1:07 pm
@Big Rob in Dallas, For an unestablished player with no other assets in the deal, yeah, best you would get is a second rounder.
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MadMatt Reply:
September 27th, 2011 at 1:09 pm
@Bill M., At this point…I’d take that second rounder.
Bill M. Reply:
September 27th, 2011 at 1:18 pm
@MadMAtt,
As would I.
KC23 Reply:
September 27th, 2011 at 2:40 pm
@Big Rob in Dallas, Nobody is going to give you much for a player who couldn’t break the line up in 4 years. Certainly not anything like a 2nd rounder.
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Simarosa Reply:
September 27th, 2011 at 3:13 pm
@MadMatt,
In Manchester, game in and game out, Voynov outplayed Hickey, so not surprised here.
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kings11 Reply:
September 27th, 2011 at 5:40 pm
@MadMatt, hickey was paired with drewsucky…he has looked better than voynov so far you guys look for flash he scored a goal on a rocket that was disallowed he plays a notch above Voy in defense and again he was paired with freakin dd44 who sucks…I’d keep both hickey and voynov sit amart and waive dd44..
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I think John Stevens has done a pretty good job with our defensive strategy, developing the PK and getting our defensemen to play at a high level. Voynov is in good hands there.
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bmova Reply:
September 27th, 2011 at 1:39 pm
@DesertKing, Now if Jamie Kompon can just do the same with the PP…!!!
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DesertKing Reply:
September 27th, 2011 at 2:22 pm
@bmova,
Who is that? Do we have a PP coach?
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I thought Voynov would make the team over Hickey and I totally forgot about Martinez. I know DD is MIA, but these young guys will impress. The 1st year no one knows your deke’s, so any of them should be exciting and more power to the management for scouting these guys.
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The ducks game the other day was mostly Drewiskie and Hickey messing up on the goals they havent been all that good at all on Defense and everything ive seen from Voynov have been pretty good so far he played great the in the coyotes game and did good against the ducks id keep him instead of hickey
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Shotongoal Reply:
September 27th, 2011 at 1:05 pm
@kc9, I agree that right now I would pick Voynov over Hickey. But, I disagree with your assessment of Hickey. He had a really nice game against PHX and really can’t be blamed for Drewiskie’s shortcomings against ANA.
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Hey Rich,
It seems like Leiweke has entered the doughty fray. it would seem to me that his comments really add to the pressure on doughty to sign or ditch his agent: http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/sports_blog/2011/09/kings-drew-doughty-nhl-dean-lombardi-hockey-tim-leiweke.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+LAT_Sports_Blog+%28The+Fabulous+Forum%29
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MadMatt Reply:
September 27th, 2011 at 1:17 pm
@paige, I totally respect that public move by Liweke and I agree that DD should choose one of those two options.
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RobSD Reply:
September 27th, 2011 at 1:24 pm
@paige,
Wow… I don’t think it gets more straight forward than that explanation. If BB(Big Baby) doesn’t get his act together, it’s going to taint things forever.
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nykingfan Reply:
September 27th, 2011 at 1:37 pm
@paige,
I usually support management, but in this case I support neither.
What Leiwieke said was pure BS. Don’t hand me that bull that $300k is going to negatively effect our RFA’s and opportunities to make deals. He’s trying to play DD against his teammates…If DD hold out for the $$, some of his friends will be gone..
That’s prety low on his part.
DD is going to come out of this looking bad and for that amount, he should…but he’s not alone. DL and the Kings organization will also take a hit around the league..especially if this continues into the regular season. Other players will say the Kings would rather hold tight to $300k than give themselves the best chance to win the cup.
I’m more than pissed right now with both sides. We as Kings fans are the ones left to suffer..like always!
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Shotongoal Reply:
September 27th, 2011 at 2:18 pm
@nykingfan, I totally agree with you again!! LIEweike has no business sticking his nose in this thing, and he loves “being the man” for AEG, but he has ALWAYS done more harm than good when it comes to the Kings. Right now Doughty looks ungrateful and the Kings look unwilling, and either way, the Kings look less competetive!
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Osaka Reply:
September 27th, 2011 at 4:43 pm
@nykingfan, It sounded like to me the Kings are about to make another offer to Drew, Tim is setting it up. I sounded pretty genius to me.
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nykingfan Reply:
September 27th, 2011 at 6:27 pm
@Osaka,
I hope you’re right, but I didn’t take that from his statement.
He acknowledged that DL could go over $6.8 but he certainly wasn’t advocating it either.
It sounded like a cheap attempt to play DD against his teammates.
It was low brow and condescending.
Th ending read as if he was begging in a patronizing manner. cmon Tim..act like an adult!
Mike in Oregon Reply:
September 27th, 2011 at 2:04 pm
@paige, Yeah, a bit sycophantic if you ask me.Saying “We love you Drew:” over and over was nauseating. Leave the negotiating to DL. I was embarrassed for Lieweke. The Kings are taking the right stance with Doughty. He should be the one saying I love you Kings over and over again.
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KC23 Reply:
September 27th, 2011 at 2:45 pm
@paige, I think both management and DD have clearly stated they don’t have a deal. DD will sit out the season apparently and we’ll lose DD forever. I blame both sides, but mostly DD as the offer was clearly reasonable.
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paige Reply:
September 27th, 2011 at 3:26 pm
@KC23, The situation is pretty frustrating, but i find it hard to believe that this is the end of DD and the kings or even the end of DD an the season. Management has the upper PR hand, and they are playing it. And DD’s reputation is taking some permanent hits. But at the end of the day, there is one, simple, guaranteed fact: despite all the posturing, DL’s job likely depends on the Kings making a good showing in the playoffs this year. And despite, leiweke’s comments, the kings management probably isn’t likely to tolerate a poor season over $200,000 a year. I imagine that a dispute or over the length of the contract is a trickier situation. I don’t know how much of this season either side is willing to sacrifice for long term gains. But Meehan must love having DL in this position – control of the King’s franchise player in a year when the kings have to win. I also wish the kings hadn’t traded Simmonds this summer. To see his best pal traded – could an impressionable young player like DD have gotten a stronger message that business trumps loyalties? And just when he has his big first contract negotiation…I still bet that DD starts the season or joins the team early on in the season.
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nykingfan Reply:
September 27th, 2011 at 5:12 pm
@paige,
Interesting point re Simmer. It’s not a petty thing, like missing your friend..as you said business trumps loyalty. Any chance of getting some type of “I grew up a Kings fan” loyalty discount was DOA..it wouldn’t have carried much weight anyway.
No matter the deal now, we’ll pay market price and no less when his next huge payday comes due.
I may be jumping ahead here but when he becomes a UFA, unless the Kings are willing to cap-hang themselves, he’ll probably walk at that time.
In the end, it’s about the most $$. It always is!
I agree with TM on this one. Given the circumatsnaces though i think Voynov did good with it. If/when Dewey signs i hope we dont use Voynov as trade bait.
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Token Reply:
September 27th, 2011 at 1:33 pm
@BrokeKingsFan, Voynov is our only right shot prospect. He’s not going anywhere.
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BrokeKingsFan Reply:
September 27th, 2011 at 3:00 pm
@Token, I wouldnt have even thought about what kind of shot he has. good point though
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I could definitely buy TMs case here. The forwards certainly DID look out of sync, and given that, it’s easy to imagine that they simply weren’t there to support the D enough.
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I can’t help but get the feeling that TM is already having second thoughts about letting the forwards have some more freedom to try and create scoring opportunities. Ohhh the “structure”…..
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KC23 Reply:
September 27th, 2011 at 2:47 pm
@PP Anybody?, If the King’s forwards play like that again, who could blame TM.
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Whatever the Cyrillic/Russian word is for ‘Shoot’, teach it to every player on this team and have them yell it at Slava every time he has an open look in the slot. Maybe that will help him with that hesitation stuff. He’s real good at getting open, but so afraid to let the shot go.
Slava looks real good and I think Drewiskie’s days could be numbered with Martinez as the #7 when DD comes back and everything settling in. Martinez needs to own his spot or Slava is taking it.
Doughty-Scuderi
Mitchell-Johnson
Greene-Slava
Martinez
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Bill M. Reply:
September 27th, 2011 at 1:27 pm
@Cynic, I think the Mitchell/Doughty pairing last year had a lot to do with those four guys preferring the left or right side. I’d be surprised if TM switches it. Definitely agree though, Drewiske looks lost, Martinez looks lost too but has shown up-side, so I would expect Voynov to take the third pair when DD returns, with Martinez really able to step into any Defensive spot without losing too much and maybe contributing a little.
Actually, Considering that Voynov has a ridiculous set of wheels, he might be an excellent compliment to Greene. Green can stay at home and push people around, and Voynov can be the rover attacking the playmakers.
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A poster yesterday Was trying to explain how this could happen, and that could happen, and the Kings won’t be able to do this because we know this or that. I said “Prove it too me” and all he could do was give me theories. I’m laying out the gauntlet now because I think he’s way off and can only surmise on facts he can’t even conmfirm.
I will first look at where we can save money fro signing DD. I’ll then look at where we will be in 6 years and let you judge.
1rst off:
Willy Mitchell cap hit 3.5 mill Contract ends 12′-13′
Rob Scuderi cap hit 3.4 mill contract ends 13′-14′
Matt Greene cap hit 2.95 mill contract ends 14′-15′
3 contracts ending in successive years totalling 9.85 mill (not including Martinez, and Whiskeys contracts that will end in 3 which would add another 1.35 mill)
2nd off:
Thomas Hickey cap hit 1.316 mill possible raise next season to 1.516 mill
Jake Muzzin cap hit 0.9 mill possible raise to 1.25 mill
Vayacheslov Voynov 0.816 mill possible raise to 1.0 mill
Possible replacemeants on highest paid defensive prospects with higher than expected raises 3.716 mill. Difference in 3 years for the Kings (at a high estimate) 6.1 mill less the Kings will spend on defense.
3rd off:
we currently pay w/o DD 15.7 mill
at 6.8 mill per year for DD 22.5 mill total
at 7 mill per year for DD 22. 7 mill total
next season
currently signed w/o DD 12.2 mill
at 6.8 mill per year for DD 19 mill total
at 7 mill per year for DD 19.2 mill total
3rd season we only have only Matt green and Jack Johnson signed at a total w/o DD 6.87 mill.
at 6.8 mill for DD 13.67 mill
at 7 mill for DD 13.87 mill
4rth, 5th, 6th, 7th seasons we will only have JJ and DD signed on defense and will need to replace everybody.
currently signed w/o DD 4.35 mill
at 6.8 mill for DD 11.15 mill
at 7 mill for DD 11.35 mill
4rth off:
Cap space in 6 years will be (with capspace at current value, assuming that it won’t rise 6 years from now),
this season 9.5 w/o DD
at 6.8 for DD 2.7
at 7 mill for DD 2.5
next season 16 players are signed and the space will be,
w/o DD 22.818 mill
at 6.8 mill for DD 16.018 mill
at 7 mill for DD 15.818 mill
2 seasons from now 7 players are signed with available capspace at
w/o DD 36.892 mill
at 6.8 mill for DD 30.092 mill
at 7 mill for DD 29.818 mill
3 seasons from now 4 players are signed with available capspace at
w/o DD 43.742 mill
at 6.8 for DD 36.958
at 7 mill for DD 36.758
4 seasons from now 3 players will be signed with available capspace at
w/o DD 47.392 mill
5, and 6 seasons will be 2 players
w/o DD 54.192 mill
7 seasons will be 1 player
w/o DD 58.550 mill
There are the numbers with DD at 6.8, and 7 mill, and with out DD.
I don’t want to hear wild theories about dooms day scenarios, because no one can confirm this or that will or won’t happen. Strictly from a facts point of view the Kings will have the space to make up the difference. I’ve provided the nombers for everyone to see. The Guantlet has been thrown, and Somebody prove to me the Kings can’t do it, and I’ll believe you.
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vplaza Reply:
September 27th, 2011 at 1:32 pm
@Dominick,
Wow, very well thought out. First off, let me get my Excel spreadsheet out so that I can counter.
In the meantime, even though you spent all this time on this, you still have NOT admitted that it is about money. Even in your last post, you said that he can make $8-$9M when he becomes a FA. That sounds like it’s about money to me. Oh well, you want to focus on this, then fine, I’ll just take it that you know it’s about money and want to win this particular argument.
Let me take the time to analyze this and get back to you.
[Reply]
Dominick Reply:
September 27th, 2011 at 1:59 pm
@vplaza, If 8 or 9 mill is what DD can get in the future than how is it about the money now, when that price is not on the Kings head for 4 or 5 years. The Kings own DD’s rights for 4 more years, and if DD says that it is his right to re-negotiate in 5 years than how is it not? The Kings don’t want to re-negotiate in 5 years, and their willing to sit him out an entire year to get years beyond that.
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vplaza Reply:
September 27th, 2011 at 4:17 pm
@Dominick,
Huh? $8M or $9M that DD “thinks” he can make as opposed to the $6.8M that he has been offered isn’t about the money? What? If he thinks he can get that much more MONEY, then what else could it be about? Wow.
And why would the Kings be happy to have to negotiate with their two highest paid players at the same time? How does that give them the flexibility they need to keep both of them, or are you already assuming they only keep one? Because for you to assume they keep both means that something’s got to give somewhere else on the team.
Finally, if you re-read Tim Liesweekly’s quote:
“Leiweke said he supports General Manager Dean Lombardi in not exceeding an average annual salary of $6.8 million for the unsigned defenseman because the Kings must save salary cap space for upgrades and allocate money to retain the nucleus of a promising young group.”
To me, that means they want to have space for UPGRADES and RETAINING a nucleus.
Now, if I thought that in any way, shape, or form, that the Kings were lowballing DD, then I’d buy some of what you’re selling. But I don’t think so. I happen to think that the Kings have offered a fair deal for what DD has DONE, not what he will POTENTIALLY do. But last year happened yet he doesn’t feel that he should be penalized for it at all. Neither do you, it seems.
Osaka Reply:
September 27th, 2011 at 4:39 pm
@Dominick, But your guessing it is only over the years. If you read both pieces with Tim never once were terms mentioned. He only talks about the sticking point being $. The difference isn’t $200,000 either. Tim said one time Drew wanted over 7 mil and another time they are $300 or $400,000 apart, that would mean Drew is asking 7.2 mil at least.
The way Tim’s comments read though I think the Kings will make another offer soon, probably 7mil for 6 years.
Dominick Reply:
September 27th, 2011 at 2:48 pm
@vplaza,
I would also like to add that DD could take a puck to the eye like Berrard and be worth less. He could blow out his knee. He could just underperform (many reasons that would make him worth less). If DD says he doesn’t care about what he’s worth 5 years from now, he just wants what is his by right, then the only issue left is , is it worth the Kings sitting him to avoid giving him those rights.
I think sitting him at all is lame, and the Kings are betting he will be worth more.
[Reply]
vplaza Reply:
September 27th, 2011 at 4:02 pm
@Dominick,
Huh? If DD says he doesn’t care what he’s worth 5 years from now and just what what’s his by right? What, exactly, is his by right? Who gave him those rights and where is it spelled out? This is probably what I’m missing through all of this. Has he told them what is his by right so they can continue discussions?
And of course the Kings are betting he will be worth more. That’s why they’re trying to get his contract low and for as long a period a time as possible, otherwise they’d have to pay him more. Isn’t that what businesses do, maximize their investments, especially if they’re within their “rights” to do it?
And your statement “he just wants what is his by right”, what does he want? MONEY. As much as he can get. If that’s the case, then don’t say “it’s not about the money”.
Dominick Reply:
September 27th, 2011 at 5:21 pm
@vplaza,
The Kings don’t own his rights past 4 years. Is this not making sense to you? The Kings are trying to force a deal for more than 4 to side step any negotiations at that time. DD is saying that if the Kings own his rights for 4 years then they can negotiate for more later. He might be worth more, he might not be, but those are not the Kings years right now, and he doesn’t want to sell them. He has been confirmed as compromising on taking 5 (which it has been confirmed the Kings won’t do), but has turned down 6 to 9 years.
Osaka,
Tim states that he wants DD signed long term and has made it look like the whole thing is about money, which I and DD (apperently) are stating it’s not. The money can be handled properly, but getting DD to sign on more years is the problem. In any case, it’s not worth sitting DD for the money or the years, and there should be a compromise.
Dominick Reply:
September 27th, 2011 at 5:25 pm
Also 7.2 has not been confirmed or even speculated by anyone.
vplaza Reply:
September 27th, 2011 at 6:18 pm
@Dominick,
Please point out where it says the Kings are obligated to only offer DD a four year deal. You keep referring to this like it’s the only allowed option the Kings have. Are teams not allowed to sign players to longer term deals? You spout that ’4 year rights’ like it’s the word of God.
Name a single team that doesn’t try to negotiate better deals for players longer than they have rights to.
And I still say it’s baloney that it’s not about money. Whether it’s money now, money later, whenever. Its about money. You know it but choose to wordsmith it so that it doesn’t sound like it. Spin it as him wanting what’s right. Well, exactly “what” is right? The money.
vplaza Reply:
September 27th, 2011 at 7:04 pm
@Dominick,
One more thing. Regarding your argument about a bad injury. If he signs a long term deal and gets injured early on, he gets paid anyway. If he signs a short term deal and gets injured early, he is only guaranteed what’s left. He then has to try to get a better or similar contract to match what he would have been guaranteed on a longer term deal, which would be hard if he did get injured.
Oh, and how about that. You just described a doomsday scenario of sorts, but it’s ok for DD to think that way but shame on Kings fans who suggest a doomsday scenario for the Kings that might require them to sign someone in an emergency.
Belexes Reply:
September 27th, 2011 at 1:32 pm
@Dominick,
Not only can the Kings do it, they better do it. They offer a huge package to B. Richards, and he turns it down. Now they have the chance of locking up their own superstar, and they’re playing hard to get.
Maybe they are showing all of us why they can’t land a premiere free agent. Offer the contract that the player is looking for, not the one that the Kings are lookin for..
[Reply]
KC23 Reply:
September 27th, 2011 at 2:50 pm
@Belexes, B. Richards offer was before the Gagne offer. If we signed B. Richards Gagne would not be a King with his 4 mil cap hit.
[Reply]
Dominick Reply:
September 27th, 2011 at 3:19 pm
@KC23, B.Richards would of forced the Kings to adjust, but for an extra 200,000 for DD? nobody wants to hear of it.
KC23 Reply:
September 27th, 2011 at 4:28 pm
@Dominick, DD has said it already … this isn’t about the money (i.e. $200,000) IOW, it’s about the lenght of the contract into UFA years and its value. It appears to me that DD has put the value of 5 years Vs 7 years very high.
I suspect if this gets done … and I do mean IF … They probably settle for 6 years at 7 mil. I doubt the Kings will agree to 5 years, but I doubt DD will settle for less than 7 mil because of it.
vplaza Reply:
September 27th, 2011 at 4:36 pm
@KC23,
How is it, that if it’s about the length of the contract into UFA years and its value, that it is NOT about the money? Someone needs to explain that in a way that makes sense because unless he’s looking to get less money in his next contract, it IS about the money.
It’s about the money he will make in his next contract.
And it works both ways. If it isn’t about the money, as he says, why is $200K that important to him? Why would he not settle for $6.8M if it’s not about the money. The Kings have been up front saying what they’re trying to accomplish, offer him a fair deal that is still cap friendly. DD’s only recent comment about it not being about the money just seems hollow to most people.
The constant defense of the “it’s not about the money” simply holds little water, IMHO.
He Shoots, He Scores Reply:
September 27th, 2011 at 1:38 pm
@Dominick,
All you need to do is go to CapGeek…
[Reply]
SLIM Reply:
September 27th, 2011 at 1:47 pm
@Dominick,
I”m with you on this stance about DD 100%…
I think Liewicke adding his 2 cents stinks of corporate manipulation…
We don’t have all the facts and so far it is quite obvious that
WE NEED #8 on this team to go the distance…I don’t care a rat’s
bum if he is the most paid player.. His salary will not handcuff
the King’s and their future pursuits…Go Dom Go..
And GKG..
[Reply]
BluLiner Reply:
September 27th, 2011 at 2:15 pm
@Dominick, Are you saying the Kings should just pay DD $7m?
If so, its tough to disagree. I think a lot of people would be upset if we lost DD for that.
If that is not what your saying, then my fault, sorry (I have to at least pretend I am doing some work at the office today.)
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vplaza Reply:
September 27th, 2011 at 2:21 pm
@Dominick,
So, to your 1st and 2nd off: Mitchell, Scuds, and Greene: You’re now assuming that those three can take the place of three stay at home defensemen for a bargain. The question becomes, who watches the blue line while these go on offense? Money-wise, it sounds good on paper. Reality-wise, since when did three prospects become first line defensemen at the same time on the same team? I know I haven’t seen that before. Nice try. And BTW, nice try to limit the discussion to d-men. What about the impact his contract has on the rest of the team?
Not sure if this makes better sense, but from CapGeek and assuming DD gets 6.8M for four years that you seem to think he has a right to:
2011-2012, Kings are 2.5M under the cap. Nice, so they have some flexibility to bring a warm body via acquisition if the need arises.
2012-2013, Kings are 16M under the cap if they don’t sign any of their UFAs. That’s a really nice number, but you’re going to need to replace your first line LW (those don’t come cheap), third line center (hey, Lokti is a great discount), and your first line stay-at home defenseman (I guess a prospect can do that next year by your estimation). Total of six roster spots for, two of which are for first line players. I know I’d like to know the team will sign someone who can make a difference, and those people don’t come cheap.
2013-2014, things get even murkier because no real way to say who will get signed to what contracts the prior year to fill those spots that became UFAs. But for arguments sake, let’s assume that they fill the roster spots with similarly priced players. If they don’t sign their UFAs and RFAs, they are 16.4M under the cap. That looks a little better than the prior year. The only key person that I think is gone is Scuds, so your second line stay-at-home dman needs to be replaced. Maybe, a prospect fills this spot by this time, so you get a discount. But now, you have both your goaltenders up for free agency. What do you pay them? If they continue to play well this year and next, they’re up for a pay raise. I’m thinking one of them gets a big bump (maybe double their salary) and maybe the other one leaves via a trade for a lower cost keeper or to bring up a prospect. That’s nine roster spots now that need to be filled, compared to six the prior year with about the same cap space.
And so we get to 2014-2015, which is DD’s contract year if he signed a 4 year deal. He’s up for a raise now. Let’s say he goes for 8.5M. And for arguments sake, say that JQ gets a nice raise because he played well the prior years, say, to 3M and Bernier gets 2M. And the Kings again are able to fill the other seven FA spots with similarly priced players. The Kings are now 8.9M under the cap with three roster spots open, with one of them being DB (does he get a raise?) and the other being Greene (guess he doesn’t expect a raise).
And so forth and so on.
What does this all mean? That signing DD to a short term contract for at least 6.8M puts the Kings in a spot where they have very little room to play with under the cap. And again, who knows what the cap will look like? No one does. It makes perfect business sense for the Kings to lock people up to contracts that are as cap friendly as possible. There are way too many variables to say unequivocally that the Kings have the space to do this.
If the cap actually shrinks from 64.3M, then it gives them virtually no flexibility with bringing in impact players. What they can do is bring in okay players, but not those that can be considered top free agents.
Of course, if your strategy behind all of this is to build a team heavy on prospects only, it may work. But I think that you need a mix of prospects and experienced veterans on both offense and defense in order to have a consistent contender. The prospets may be cheaper, but how many teams have won consistently with a team made up of mainly those, especially on the blue line?
I doubt that this makes a difference in your mind, but that’s okay. Yours isn’t the only opinion out there.
[Reply]
BrokeKingsFan Reply:
September 27th, 2011 at 2:29 pm
@vplaza, @Dominick, you guys have way to much time on your hands
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vplaza Reply:
September 27th, 2011 at 2:33 pm
@BrokeKingsFan,
LOL
vplaza Reply:
September 27th, 2011 at 2:33 pm
@Dominick,
I didn’t get to the year that Anze becomes a FA. By that time, there are even more variables beceuse we don’t know who they sign and to what term to fill the rest of the roster.
So, again, I repeat, NO ONE knows what the future holds, not DD, not the Kings, not you, not me. But, the team has a cap to work with and a finite amount of money and roster spots to fill. Unless you know FOR A FACT who will be coming in over the next few years and what they will be paid and for how long, you are merely guessing at whether or not the team will have space. I’m guessing too and I readily admit that. (I also admit that I’m not a GM, so take all of this with a grain of salt.)
There are too many moving parts and such. And I’m not mentioning any doomsday scenarios. I just know that over the coming years, people need to be replaced and the more they pay DD short term and the more they have to pay on his next contract hampers this team’s ability to sign top free agents. To me, that means they don’t have the space to grant him his short term wishes.
And finally, I say again, it’s about the money. Plain and simple.
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Dominick Reply:
September 27th, 2011 at 2:56 pm
@vplaza, 1rst, 2nd, and 3rd off have to do with what we spend on defense, and what is available to spend with or wthout DD. The potential on space is almost identical on what we will have left to fill out the defense wether we pay DD 6.8, or 7. 4rth off has to do with the team as a whole. I didn’t say tose 3 vets will be released at the same tiime, I said “3 contracts ending in successive years” which implies that the 3 rookies wouldn’t come in at the same time but in successive years as well. Keep trying, because I’m not convinced.
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vplaza Reply:
September 27th, 2011 at 3:46 pm
@Dominick,
Whzt’s to try? You’re looking at it from strictly the defensive position and assume that players they will sign will fit nicely under a cap that you have no idea what it will be. And you’ve assumed conveniently that they won’t be signing players of high value during those years you mention.
Nice try though.
vplaza Reply:
September 27th, 2011 at 3:52 pm
@Dominick,
And to highlight the ludicrous nature of the argument, in 7 years, we’ll have 1 player under contract, so we must have a TON of space to pay Drew what he’ll want in those years and after.
Why not just say in 7 years, we can pay one player 20M and still have space to put a minor hockey league around him?
MONEY! That’s what it’s about. Say it already since you’ve already said it implicitly before. Because I’m not convinced that it isn’t about money.
BringBackKingston Reply:
September 27th, 2011 at 5:52 pm
@Dominick, i think, first of all, that there is no way to “prove” what the Kings cap situation will be 3+ years down the road. there will be changes in personnel, for which we don’t know the future cap hit, and there will be changes to the cap structure following re-negotiating the CBA, for which it is also an unknown. go back 5 years ago when DL was hired. could anyone have predicted who would be playing defense today and their cap hit back then? no. DD, Willie, JJ, Scuds, Martinez, and Greene were not even on the team. So, there is no way to “prove” who will be on the team 3, 4, 5, 6, etc. years down the road and the cap hit.
What DL/the Kings and some fans are doing is making their best educated guess about the makeup of team and the financial structure that will be in place. Projecting out a few years, the biggest problem will be what to do about the team’s stay at-home defensemen. I don’t doubt that DD will remain with the team and with JJ being signed long term and Martinez being young I don’t think those 3 are going anywhere (or one of the young puck movers – Voynov/Hickey can step in). But with Willie, Scuds, and Greene, do you keep them or let them go? I personally feel that DL’s decision here will have a bigger impact on the team over the long term. My opinion is there are currently no stay at-home defensemen in the pipeline that can step up and immediately play at a level that Willie and Scuds play. The current team has the potential to make it the conference finals or stanley cup finals. A big part of the teams success has been the play of the 3 defensive d-men. But who will step in and play as a defensive d-man to the level required to keep the team a perennial contender? Voynov & Hickey won’t fill that roll. Maybe Muzzin will develop into that type of player, but before he got injured people were commenting about how he hasn’t performed in camp to the level expected. It will take time to develop a defensive d-man, and even more time for them to consistently play at the level needed for a top pairing d-men on a contending team.
So, that leaves the option of retaining any combination of current 3 defensive d-men or looking outside of the organization (FA or trade). Either of these options will at best keep their cap hits at the currently level, or more likely will increase. And if the team does perform to the level expected there will be even more pressure on DL not to change a thing, or at least to make minor changes.
I think in 3 years one of the more defensive d-man prospects will be able to play regular minutes in the NHL, but there will still be a need for 2 veteran defensive d-men. And those will cost money.
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Dominick Reply:
September 27th, 2011 at 6:57 pm
@BringBackKingston, Absolutely. I agree. My point is that the Kings don’t know and can’t state that the difference between 6.8 and 7 will cripple their chances. No one knows that one way or the other, but this is the basis for any arguement that the Kings can’t do it.
I agree with you on stay at home D, and only see a real ace in the hole with Forbort who isn’t projected for at least 3 more years.
I agree that adjustments will have to be made, but will 200,000 really prevent that from happening? Seriously, I have put out a challenge to that theory. The difference is almost non existant, and the true reasons are greater than most suggest.
Excellent post!
[Reply]
BringBackKingston Reply:
September 27th, 2011 at 11:36 pm
@Dominick, it all depends on how much the cap increases next year and what you expect to do with the FAs to be. I’ll run a couple of different scenarios. (i hope my numbers are right). I’m only using next year as an example because the # of unknowns is smaller than subsequent years.
Given (from capgeek):
$64.3M – this years cap
16 – # of players under contract next year
$41,481,310 – cap payroll for those 16 players
Free Agents & current cap salary
Penner, Dustin 4,250,000
Stoll, Jarret 3,600,000
Mitchell, Willie 3,500,000
Parse, Scott 900,000
Fraser, Colin 825,000
Moreau, Ethan 600,000
Assume:
$7.0M cap hit for DD
$2,325,000 cap hit for Parse, Fraser, Moreau or their replacements. I figure DL can find players from either the minors or as FAs for about the same amount as he is currently playing for those 3 roster spots.
$2.0M in cap space so DL can make moves at the trade deadline. I picked this number because this is what DL seems to be comfortable with so he can make an upgrade.
that leaves 3 roster spots that you have to figure out what to do – Willie, Stoll, Penner. Combined their cap hit this year is $11,350,000. If you don’t return them, you have to find a 1st line LW, 3rd line C, and #2 d-man, and then calculate the cap hit.
Cap scenarios:
So far the smallest cap increase has been 0.18%. A projected increase at this rate would give a cap of approximately $64.4M for next year. The projected #s look like this:
SALARY CAP 64,413,404
CAP PAYROLL 50,806,310 (includes $7M for DD and $2.325 for Parse, etc)
CAP SPACE 13,607,094
CAP SPACE w/$2M buffer 11,607,094
As you can see, what Willie, Stoll, and Penner currently make ($11,350,000) almost runs up against the cap space with a $2M buffer. But don’t forget that you will have to factor increases for those 3. With reasonable increases, it can easily surpass the cap space, and leave no room to make additional moves at the trade deadline.
Now, if one or more of those 3 don’t come back, you have to replace either a 1st line LW, 3rd line C, and #2 d-man. A 1st line LW and #2 d-man won’t come cheap, especially on the free agent market. If you assume that Lokti can survive a season without getting injured and can hang with the big boys, you can fill him in Stoll’s spot at cap hit of $816,666. Keeping a $2M buffer, that leaves about $10.8M for a 1st line LW and #2 d-man. With these numbers it becomes very difficult to find the right players. A quick glance at next year’s FA list, the top wing on the market is Parise. Currently his cap hit is $6M. What will it take to sign him? $7 or $8M? more? If not Parise, who else is worthwhile? Do you think you can get a #2 d-man for the remaining $2-3M? We can play out many scenarios, but as you can see it becomes tricky to have enough $$$ to keep or bring in the right players.
The 2nd smallest cap increase has been 4.58%. A projected increase at this rate would give a cap of approximately $67.2M for next year. The projected #s look like this:
SALARY CAP 67,243,310
CAP PAYROLL 50,806,310
CAP SPACE 16,437,000
CAP SPACE w/$2M buffer 14,437,000
Much of what I said above applies in this scenario. The only difference is that there is about $2.8M in cap space to play with compared to the other example. It still comes down to trying to fit your 1st line LW, 3rd line C, and #2 d-man under $14.4M. Do you try to keep Penner, Stoll, and Willie – in this scenario it becomes doable. But if you make a run for Parise and keep Willie, keeping Stoll becomes almost impossible, which may be necessary to do if Lokti can’t handle playing with the big boys.
And one more scenario. The average cap increase over the years has been 8.81%. A projected increase at this rate would give a cap of approximately $69.9M for next year. The projected #s look like this:
SALARY CAP 69,965,403
CAP PAYROLL 50,806,310
CAP SPACE 19,159,093
CAP SPACE w/$2M buffer 17,159,093
Obviously even more $$$ to fit everybody.
At the end of the day, it all comes down to what the team believes will happen with the cap. Does it go up? By how much? If it increases very little, then that $200,000 become that much more important. Now, I’m not saying that it’ll break the bank, but it will have an effect.
From a point of principle, the kings have to say that every little bit will count. If they didn’t then every other player after DD could make the same argument – pay me a couple extra hundred thousand more. If every player go that then the whole cap structure would be out of whack. The same idea goes for no trade clauses or NMC – they can’t be given out like candy.
The argument that the kings should just pay the $200K because it’s a drop in the bucket cuts both ways. Is DD really willing to not play over $200K? If I’m getting $6.8 to play a game that I love with a group of guy’s that I care about, will I let $200K keep from playing?
Ultimately, I do think it is not so much about $$$ as it is about the term. That is a more difficult hurdle to overcome.
Dominick Reply:
September 28th, 2011 at 8:49 am
@BringBackKingston,
Another excellent post. I am responding to it in hopes that you read this, but it’s probably useless since it’s so far back in the threads, but anyways.
We seem to be in complete agreement on the upcoming problems the Kings will face. I agree with your assesment 100%, and think that adjustments, and some tough decisions will have to be made. I am not disagreeing with you at all, but would like to add another thought to your post.
Last summer Simmonds was considered untouchable, and untradeable, because many of us couldn’t fathom him having a less than stellar performance in the upcoming season. Many figured he’d get a raise before the season started, till he started to show signs of fallibility. We also had a weakspot with our 2nd line center position, but no one could see ahead of time how we could let go of Zues, or correct this weakness, without trading Stoll.
In 1 fell swoop DL’s genius turned those 3 problems into strengths by aquiring Mike Richards (which nobody saw coming). That allowed us to let Zues walk, and obviously Simmonds landed in Philly. Stoll can now move to the 3rd line, and that gives us a whole different look and depth we didn’t have before.
My point is that we don’t know what this season will yeild, or what trade offers might come our way to allow DL to do what he does. Adjustments will have to be made, and DL will have to make some tough decisions on letting players go regardless of wether we pay the extra to DD, or not. Those adjustments are coming. I have the Confidence in Dean that he will figure it out as time goes on, because that is all the guy focuses on all year long.
I understand his position on DD, but at the same time, I think now is not the time to hagle over an amount for your best defenseman that won’t change any outcome. Now is the time to sign DD, get the season going in the right direction, and figure it out as opportunities arise. The team right now has the potential to be a contender with DD, which is the whole purpose of why Dean built the defense around DD in the first place.
For what it’s worth though, I loved your post, and probably didn’t address enough of the issues, but think we see things very similar for sure. Probably writing this for myself anyways.
I don’t like the totality of TM’s answer. Yes, the lack of proper back checking by the forwards may have caused some stress on the young d-men but that doesn’t change the opportunity to evaluate them under those circumstances.
Hammond asks TM about Voynov and he ends up hacking on the forwards about their decisions. Just answer the question, pal. So, how did Voynov handle the stress? If you can’t see it in real time, TM, then look at the tape and see how he did.
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Forget about Doughty, ship him to the Jets for a top pick and a player. Drew can see what it wiil be like playing for a non playoff team for awhile. 21 and knows nothing, what a shame
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Kings will not make the playoffs if they do not sign Doughty. He makes a huge difference on the breakouts. He is mobile and will only get better. A typical Kings management botch of the negotiations.
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On a lighter note, here are photos from last night’s get-together with fellow LAKI commenters. The very generous Puck73 set it all up. Thanks Puck! We’ll be putting together watch parties throughout the season, both here in LA and down south so that more of you can come join in the festivities.
http://deepinsidethekings.com/2011/09/behind-enemy-lines-insiders-gather-in-duckland/
[Reply]
BrokeKingsFan Reply:
September 27th, 2011 at 2:31 pm
@wavesinair, Very cool! wish i could have been there
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Kingsfanone Reply:
September 27th, 2011 at 2:32 pm
@wavesinair,
Nice waves! Thanx! Had a great time talking with you and the rest of the “puck73 Crew”!
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Shotongoal Reply:
September 27th, 2011 at 2:41 pm
@wavesinair, thanks for posting the pics and nice meeting you!
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OnTheFly Reply:
September 27th, 2011 at 2:52 pm
@wavesinair,
We forgot to take a pic of all the Pizza. Nice meeting all of you and looking forward to FrozenFury.
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Goring 19 Reply:
September 27th, 2011 at 6:12 pm
@wavesinair, Had a great time last night, was nice to meet all you guys (and gals) Let’s do it again!
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One thing to consider about this whole Doughty situation is that whomever makes the team will being to accumulate the NHL paycheck, then on top of that, Doughty, once signed will begin to accrue his as well, so this is really a doublewhammy to the Kings’ cap this season. Clearly, this is may become an issue given the recent rhetoric from the Kings’ front office.
Other scenarios to consider: Hickey’s NHL contract has a $1.3M cap hit. Voynov’s is $800,000. Although I’m not the biggest fan of Drewiske, he’ll make half of what Hickey would make at $600,000.
Does anyone know how these contracts work against the cap? Example: Kings start the season with Voynov in Doughty’s place, accrues two months of service time, then gets sent down in late November when Doughty finally signs. Would the Kings Voynov’s $800,000 count against the cap, or at least a portion? Something to think about at least with the front office rhetoric regarding cap space flexibility at the deadline. Quisp? Puck73? Someone that knows the CBA well? Help a brotha out.
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He Shoots, He Scores Reply:
September 27th, 2011 at 1:58 pm
@He Shoots, He Scores,
Typo – will BEGIN*
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He Shoots, He Scores Reply:
September 27th, 2011 at 1:59 pm
@He Shoots, He Scores,
Wow, just throw out that whole post. Sorry guys, that was crap.
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Will Campbell be considered for a spot on the team? Where would he fit? Would he be a replacement for Drewiske?
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Crown Royal Reply:
September 27th, 2011 at 2:53 pm
@vivian,
Not sure if Campbell is ready. Could maybe be a call-up if one of the stay at home d-men get hurt during the season.
I like Campbell’s game (he’s strictly a defensive player at this point) and I think he’s got a chance to make an NHL roster eventually.
[Reply]
puck73 Reply:
September 27th, 2011 at 3:25 pm
@Crown Royal, I give Campbell alot of credit. He didnt look like much a couple of years ago but thanx to Mark Morris and his staff, and the fact that this guy has put the work in, he has made himself into a relevant player in our system.
The other thing I try to keep in mind Crown is that a guy like Scuderi didnt make into the NHL until he was 26. I think sometimes people forget that defense maybe the hardest position to learn, especially if you want to get to this level.
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Crown Royal Reply:
September 27th, 2011 at 4:03 pm
@puck73,
It works to Campbell’s advantage that guys like Voynov, Martinez, Hickey are seen as puck moving d-men. Other than possibly Muzzin there aren’t any defensive types ready, at this point, in Manchester.
I agree, Puck, he’s put some work in and the Manchester coaches seemed to have done a good job with him.
KC23 Reply:
September 27th, 2011 at 4:37 pm
@puck73, Couldn’t agree more. Defenseman rarely mature before the age of 24 and many if not most around 26-27 of age. Hickey is definately not something to tose away as a failed draft pick. I bet he makes it to the NHL one of these years and does just fine.
KC23 Reply:
September 27th, 2011 at 3:56 pm
@vivian,Doubt it and therefore its a moot point. Right now Campbell is behind at least 3 other defenseman. What he does in Manchester this year and in camp next year will determine his future it would seem.
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Do any of you think Voynov is getting in better shape then Drew? Why isn’t $6.8 mill enough for a 21 yr old that never went to college? Why are the agents trying to out do one another at the expense of a young man’s career and the fan who saves his hard earned money to take his family to a game he loves the most? Makes me sad and angry at the same time. Life can be short people. What are you waiting for…truly makes me sad for Drew and his future. Agents are annoying.
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