The Kings have signed prospects Linden Vey and Jean-Francois Berube to three-year entry level contracts.
Vey, 19, was a fourth-round pick in the 2009 draft and is coming off a season in which he led the Western Hockey League in scoring, with 116 points in 69 games (46 goals, 70 assists). Vey’s Medicine Hat Tigers reached the Eastern Conference Finals in the WHL, and vey had 12 goals and 13 assists in 15 playoff games.
Berube, 19, also was a fourth-round pick in the 2009 draft. This season, with the Montreal Juniors of the Quebec Major Junior Hockey League, Berube played 50 games and went 32-7-8 with a 2.60 goals-against average (which ranked fourth in the league), a .902 save percentage and three shutouts. Berube also played three games for the AHL’s Manchester Monarchs this season.
Way to go DEAN!
[Reply]
LBlocal Reply:
May 23rd, 2011 at 8:30 pm
Couldn’t resist sharing this DB23 tweet, received minutes ago, with this fabulous forum:
While at the cargo terminal at LAX I think I saw a prototype for the next big product for the music/tech industry! yfrog.com/h7fufbhj
=) gKg!
[Reply]
Good stuff, really interested to see how Vey develops.
[Reply]
future looks bright! lets hope they develop into top end players with the KINGS!
[Reply]
Just more of DL’s insidious plan to corral the best collection of the brightest young talent and doom them playing for that god-awful, antiquated, no passing allowed and please don’t shoot the puck Terry Murray.
There, I said it, for the haters. They can go on aboyut their day…
[Reply]
Zamboni Reply:
May 23rd, 2011 at 3:22 pm
@Player-X, Amen. Murray has to go.
[Reply]
CB14 Reply:
May 23rd, 2011 at 3:22 pm
@Player-X, You took the words right out of my mouth. Except for that last line!
[Reply]
39scars Reply:
May 23rd, 2011 at 4:04 pm
@Player-X, Dean keeps signing guys who can’t even score a goal per game. What is a coach to do
[Reply]
Hat trick Reply:
May 23rd, 2011 at 4:29 pm
@Player-X, took the words right outta my mouth. Even if they brought Ovechkin, Crosby and St Louis over Murray’s system is still a bust.
[Reply]
Player-X Reply:
May 23rd, 2011 at 4:52 pm
@Hat trick, oh my god, you thought I was serious! ummm, “insidious plan”???? WOW.
[Reply]
Hat trick Reply:
May 23rd, 2011 at 5:04 pm
@Player-X, No but I like what you said about TM.
quisp Reply:
May 23rd, 2011 at 5:16 pm
@Player-X, @HAT-TRICK
Player X was kidding. He’s mocking people who think that Terry Murray is responsible for repressing the scoring abilities of the very long list of players whose numbers have suffered under his tutelage.
Anyway, “no-passing allowed and please don’t shoot the puck” isn’t accurate enough to be effective parody, in my opinion.
I think the people who identify Murray has problematic generally believe that (as Murray and Lombardi have both stated from the beginning) a certain amount of offense is sacrificed in order to play a defensively hermetic system, but the system turns out to be so inflexible and predictable that it requires absolutely flawless execution for it to work, the absence of which leads to high-percentage scoring chances against, and therefore goals, and therefore losses. And all the opponent has to do, having identified what the Kings are doing, is simply to execute their prepared and practiced countermeasure. As long as the Kings continue to be flawless, and/or the opponent continues to fail to execute, the Kings will win. But eventually there will be a breakdown, or the opponent will get it right on the attack, and the result is goals-against.
And every goal-against means more than it would otherwise, because the Kings don’t have the firepower to catch-up.
The other complaint would be that Murray’s system lacks variation from line-to-line. Some lines are more defensive than others, but that’s because the players are more responsible than others. The system is the same line to line. This is necessary in order for Murray to be able to swap out players; he can change lines at a moments notice because the system is the same line-to-line; but for that, homogeneity is not necessary or desirable. And that system (which by the way would work just as well – or nearly — with lower skilled players) is designed to level an uneven playing field. But that only works when the Kings are at a disadvantage in terms of skill. It doesn’t work as well when the forwards are having to check their gifts at the door.
[Reply]
CB14 Reply:
May 23rd, 2011 at 5:32 pm
@quisp, BINGO! Quisp for President. Thank you for posting what I’ve felt, but can’t explain it well enough to describe it to other people what i’ve felt.
[Reply]
fuzzerson Reply:
May 23rd, 2011 at 5:42 pm
@quisp, Who is the only man to hold Frolov to under 20 goals?
[Reply]
Dave Reply:
May 23rd, 2011 at 6:21 pm
@fuzzerson, Tortorella?
Sebastian Reply:
May 24th, 2011 at 8:57 am
@fuzzerson, Frolov?
Minnesota Kings Fan Reply:
May 24th, 2011 at 9:18 am
@fuzzerson,
Frolov!
jet Reply:
May 23rd, 2011 at 5:54 pm
@quisp, Are you saying that Parse – Handzeus – and 80% Williams is a talented enough first line that can play in an offensive system?
BTW, good to see you back.
[Reply]
CB14 Reply:
May 23rd, 2011 at 5:59 pm
@jet, How about Penner-Kopi-100%Williams. Are you saying that is NOT a talented enough first line that can play in an offensive system?
That’s a line with 3 30 goal scorers.
DTALKER Reply:
May 24th, 2011 at 7:04 pm
@jet,
Yes, they will definitely score some goals, but with Penner and Williams you have 2 players who are clueless on defense. One is too slow to react and the other avoids body contact whenever possible. I feel for Kopitar as he would be constantly giving up his offensive game to cover for their defensive liabilities.
Hat trick Reply:
May 23rd, 2011 at 5:58 pm
@quisp, there’s gonna be the for TM camp and the against TM camp. I personally think he’s not the one to lead the team into the promised land. That’s just me though.
I’m sure we’ll all find out this upcoming season whether or not he’s the savior of this squad and actually take the team beyond the 1st round, assuming they make it in.
I really do hope all these TM supporters are right. I just don’t see the value in him.
[Reply]
Dominick Reply:
May 23rd, 2011 at 6:10 pm
@Hat trick, You can be a supporter of TM and agree that he’s not completely effective. The problem is that when you bring up questions TM suporters kind of defend with this how dare you mentality. Which even if your just worried, you’ve picked a side.
jet Reply:
May 23rd, 2011 at 6:25 pm
@Dom, I am a supporter of both the coach and the system. I have two primary reasons. One is that I do not believe we have the offensive talent to compete with the other teams in the Pacific or the West even. I think we are getting there, but still have a couple of years to be able to compete. Second, I see the Kings give a better effort consistenly game after game than any other team in the league. We are a top team in the league not because of our talent, but because we out work teams and we play a simple system that allows the rookies to contribute.
Do not be surprised if TM gives more freedom over the two years as our talent comes in.
Hat trick Reply:
May 23rd, 2011 at 6:34 pm
@Hat trick, I can appreciate and respect that and best wishes to the TM fans. For me in watching almost every single game the past two seasons because they finally let that loser Crawford go(DVR’s are the coolest inventions since the beer bong)I thought there was some real light at the end of the tunnel. And hey making the playoffs that first year was really good to see. Then that decision to stick with Quick. Yikes!
Then this last season. I now want this guy off the bench.
Osaka Reply:
May 23rd, 2011 at 6:58 pm
@Dominick,
Dom because you can support a guy you don’t agree with doesn’t mean everyone elso can or be rational. Do you read the comments? “….Murray has to go.” That is the common theme we are hit with everyday. “…. even if they brought Ovechkin, Crosby, and St. Louis…..Murray’s system is still a bust.” It is not that there is a camp of Murray supporters that “defend him with how dare you mentality”. The hatred of Murray is blinding most. I find fault with TM, I told you I wish the Kings would open there system up more and would love to see them play like Detroit. I think TM cost the Kings game 3 in the playoffs by not calling a time out. I think he is stubborn, unwilling to adapt on the fly, and self-contradicting. That being said he is still a very good coach. Back to back seasons of 98 pts. is a very good improvement for this young team. You can argue the team could have done better if we used another system but that doesn’t take away the fact that the system has been successful. TM doesn’t have the Kings playing my favorite style of hockey but that doesn’t mean it can’t be effective. Someone wrote the Kings will never win the cup with TM as coach, now who is being rational? I think I agree more with most of you guys than dissagree, but I am not blinded by hate. It is not that I am being overprotective but fair. I am all for being cridical.
Hat trick Reply:
May 23rd, 2011 at 7:10 pm
@Osaka I wouldn’t call it hatred. That’s an awefully strong word. I see it as more “I’ve seen what you can do and I just don’t think what you have is what it takes” mentality. I don’t think any of us knows TM personally at least I don’t.
I’m sure he’s a great guy. I just don’t think he’s got what it takes. I like JW’s attitude on a season. If they don’t win the cup then they weren’t successful. So these last two season of making the playoffs is great and all but imo it wasn’t “successful.”
Just curious for all the TM supporters, if next season they exit after round 1 again or God forbid don’t make it in, will you all still be supporters of him and his system?
Dominick Reply:
May 23rd, 2011 at 7:15 pm
@Osaka,
I think you and I are in the exact same place. Just forced to take sides on different agenda’s. Both sides can be unreasonable at times. I can only speak from the TM haters side, because that’s where I got labeled. LOL
I tried to bring up all the points you brought up for both sides, but in the end ended up defending more than anything else.
Osaka Reply:
May 23rd, 2011 at 7:30 pm
@Hat trick, You might not have the hatred but some here…..
If the Kings don’t make the playoff I can’t say if I would support TM’s system unless I know the circumstances, injuries could play into, but of course it would need to be evaluated at that time. Why wasn’t it successful, could it have been….. I never said TM was infallible. If he is unable to make the Kings a better team of course I would be for replacing him. He is not my cult leader just a hockey coach. Just that he has coached the Kings for 3 years now and I see the progress made and the team has gotten better after each season.
PP Anybody? Reply:
May 23rd, 2011 at 6:00 pm
@quisp, Nicely said.
[Reply]
Crown Royal Reply:
May 23rd, 2011 at 9:04 pm
@Osaka
It was me who said the Kings would not win the Cup with Murray as coach. You site that as an example of not being rational. I’m basing that opinion more on fact than your enthusisiam for TM because the Kings have gained points in the standings.
My observation reflects TM’s inability to have won the Cup with four different hockey teams and organizations over a span of thirteen seasons. Is it more rational to believe the Kings will win the Cup with Murray or not win the cup based on his long history as a coach? Quisp’s anaylis was very good and I agree with much of those comments. TM has been effective to a point but his system is self defeating. I’m still surprised that you someone believe your optimism about TM somehow supercedes the facts which you deem as not being rational. I hope you’re right about TM but the facts don’t support it.
Dominick Reply:
May 23rd, 2011 at 6:06 pm
@quisp,
Brilliant. Yes, that about sums it up perfectly.
[Reply]
blahblah Reply:
May 23rd, 2011 at 6:39 pm
@quisp,
quisp, what you say is very well thought out and makes complete logical sense. but i have a question for you. this defensive system which murray and lombardi have put in place in order for the kings to be successful (or at least at an even playing field) without having the skilled players to do otherwise, seems to have been fairly effective so far. now, do you think, that once our skill up front improves with a couple key forwards, that murray and lombardi will recognize this and tweak the system to fit the new personnel? or will they stubbornly stick to the same defensive system with all the lines playing the same way?
[Reply]
Dominick Reply:
May 23rd, 2011 at 6:57 pm
@blahblah,
That is the million dollar question.
I have my doubts, but some believe we’re already on our way. Since I respect their advise, I’m willing to wait and see.
Wether we have the talent is another question. I think the evidence of seeing that area developed internally is what is sparking this whole debate.
I personally believe we’ve arrived already, and are at the point where the system moving forward has to match the talent. That is just my opinion though.
Bringing in FA’s is the only answer now because all prospects have proven useeless as scorers. FA’s won’t work if we end up filling those roles with FA’s that don’t produce (like Penner).
The fact that Penner isn’t producing is argueable also. Is it him or the system? Most say him. Penner has the same problem as all the other FA’s brought in to score. Is it them too?
Pesus Reply:
May 23rd, 2011 at 7:49 pm
@blahblah,
I think TM did open it up a little bit early in the season. Then we gave up 13 goals in 2 games. (phx & phili) After those to games we couldnt score. I think he put the handcuffs on after that. This is just my observation, I could be totally wrong. But after those 2 games we played great D but had trouble scoring 2 goals a game.
I dont hate TM, think he has done some good things. But can we go deep in the playoffs playing like this???
quisp Reply:
May 23rd, 2011 at 10:47 pm
@blahblah
First of all, because it’s probably not clear from my comment above, I feel like I should say that I am a big believer in defensive systems, in playing a team game with no player above the team or the system or the rules. I have always been a fan of Terry Murray. I was a defenseman and I’m probably predisposed to the same sorts of defense-first prejudices he is.
However, when I start to read that Kopitar is our best defensive forward and losing him really hurt our defense in the playoffs, alarm bells go off. Because Kopitar is not being paid 7 million a year to be a defensive forward. I know that the people who said that were just repeating a talking point, a more or less vacuous compliment. but still.
drew doughty is going to get 6MM-ish a year. he wasn’t drafted to be a shut-down guy. he won’t be getting thebig bucks to quarterback a season’s worth of 1-0 and 2-1 wins.
You can get away with that with a low payroll team. but the kings are going to have a payroll around $62MM next year.
penner, evidence to the contrary, is pretty solid defensively. So is handzus. simmonds too. kopitar, smyth, williams, stoll, brown, schenn, moller, loktionov, doughty, johnson, voynov, martinez, deslauriers, hickey, toffoli, purcell, moulson, kozun, azevedo, holloway, o’sullivan (who lombardi traded for, remember)…these are all not only offense-first guys, skill guys, snipers, goal scorers, playmakers…but these are players who absolutely do not benefit from playing a suffocating defensive system designed to win games 1-0.
lombardi drafted or signed these people. (and look who he traded away: belanger and gleason…two very good DEFENSIVE players…). He knows that he will sink or swim based on how these players do, and he has to know that murray’s system is not going to be the one to get the most out of those players.
but, to borrow a phrase of lombardi’s, he knew that murray could get them to play well, “from the goaltender out…” i.e. good goaltending, bolstered by solid defense, aided by responsible forward support, or whatever you want to call it.
but there’s no way that he’s going to let 7MM kopitar, 6MM doughty, 5MM johnson, 3MM schenn, etc. wear restraints for very long.
to (finally) answer your question, yes I think Lombardi and Murray will “open things up” at some point. In fact, Murray SAID he was doing just that last september. but it didn’t work out, and he retreated back to what he knows.
and that, i worry, is the problem. i could be wrong. but there’s a stubbornness to murray’s method, and i don’t know if he’s going to be able to loosen the reigns in any real way. i worry it will just keep coming back to “poni needs to score more” while also playing air-tight defense. what I call the “score more anyway” directive.
I mean no disrespect to TM. he’s forgotten more about hockey than I’ll ever know. he’s coached about a million NHL games. he’s in the top 20-30 all-time in several categories. it’s just that, to a certain extent, the relationship of a coach to his team is a little like a marriage. sometimes one person changes and the other doesn’t. well, wasn’t it inevitable that the Kings team — the core — would grow up and (literally and figuratively) change? and don’t we have to expect that a 60 year old veteran coach with several hundred wins will not be all that amenable to change?
and what happens then?
blahblah Reply:
May 23rd, 2011 at 11:25 pm
@blahblah,
very well put, quisp. again, a great analytical breakdown.
and what happens then? since we dont have much (any) say in these decisions, we will continue to share our thoughts on this blog and cheer on the kings…with, or without terry murray behind the bench.
Osaka Reply:
May 23rd, 2011 at 11:44 pm
@Quisp
I strongly disagree with the assesment that Kopi being our best defensive forward is in anyway a negative or should be construde as a misuse (or even waste) of talent. A solid two way hockey player is NEVER a bad thing: Pavel Datsyuk, Steve Yzerman, Ron Francis, Doug Gilmour, Bobby Clarke…..
However you may just be right about the Kings outgrowing TM if he doesn’t generate more offense. I think the Kings can win with his system but if they don’t or have trouble scoring I see him as unable or unwilling to make adjustments needed. I really think they will play more consistent next year and expect more maturity from the young club.
Hat trick Reply:
May 24th, 2011 at 12:44 am
@quisp, Very well stated. Yes it is a very big concern. I 1000% agree with you that a strong D and an awesome G is absolutely necessary for success and I think we have that already. I naturally play RW and as a forward if I know that my D&G is solid it really frees me up to try and score. Not to say I won’t help out on D also but you know what I mean. But if I’m constantly being fed a steady diet of D first, well it’s very stifling.
Who knows maybe TM can change over the summer? All we can hope for, yet another season, is to see the boys raise the cup and the franchise to finally hang that banner “Los Angeles Kings Stanley Cup Champions.”
@Osaka, No forward (unless he’s some lazy cruiser) is going to leave his team behind and watch the other team rush up the ice into their zone and think “I’ll just let the D&G handle it.”
All forwards will help out on D, they have to they have no other choice. But when, as a forward, you’re constantly being fed a steady diet of D first I think it starts to wear on you because, quite honestly, that’s not your primary job. Your job as a forward is to put the puck in the net.
So like quisp stated the team isn’t paying Kopitar to be a defense first forward.
Osaka Reply:
May 24th, 2011 at 1:20 am
@Hat trick,
I do hope TM does open it up a little, I would love to see some offensive flow. I also see Kopitar as a complete package and don’t value his offense more than his defense though. I don’t think Kopi should play either defense or offense first. He should play hockey and that is both. Pavel Datsyuk has won the Selke as the best defensive forward in the league for 3 years in a row now. Is Detroit not getting the most out of his abilities in your belief?
Dominick Reply:
May 24th, 2011 at 1:46 am
@Osaka,
Datsyuk is proof that you can score and still be responsible defensively. Datsyuk is not put out on the ice to just play defensively. Kopi isn’t either, but Detroit doesn’t play a defense first system. Even though Vancouver scored the most goals in the NHL did they sacrifice defense? No, they lead the league there also. Kopi can be a 100 point a year player without being the main defensive weapon in our system.
Dominick Reply:
May 24th, 2011 at 12:09 am
@quisp,
This is something personal, but I can’t help but admire the way you can articulate your views and opinions. That is something that I strive to accomplish here, but at times fail at miserably, sometimes to the point where I offend more than comfort, and anger more than teach. Reading your posts gives me a sense of focus, and calmness. Thank you very much for putting things into perspective, even though your comments weren’t meant for me personally.
Hope I didn’t come off sounding all mushy, and soft. Next time I drink my chocolate milk, I’ll use a dirty glass.
[Reply]
number 6 Reply:
May 24th, 2011 at 6:10 am
@Dominick,
@quisp
I’ll echo what you have just written Dominick.
Token Reply:
May 24th, 2011 at 7:26 am
@Dominick,
Crown Royal Reply:
May 24th, 2011 at 10:51 am
@Quisp,
You are quite articulate. One truism about sport is that history repeats itself. I have been critical of TM for some time now as I believe his response to the current NHL game is untenable. The game has reverted back to a speed game which TM’s system cannot change. When Lemaire and the Devils trapped the Wings into submission in the finals of the strike shortened season back in the mid ninties, it was not an invention. The Swedes were trapping the Russians back in the sixties trying to slow them down. Lemaire reached into the past to win in the then present.
TM and his defensive system cannot take the speed and skill out of the game which has taken a turn towards the seventies and early eighties. Chicago and Vancouver have emerged not with outstanding goaltending but rather speed, mobility, and puck skills. It’s interesting to note that Detroit and Vancouver are full of Swedes who grow up playing with a team first mentality which is a reflection of Swedish society. Both of those teams are quite mobile. Ditto the Hawks (mobility wise) who won it last year. The era of strictly defensive hockey is over in the NHL.
I respect TM for his ability to teach his system to the players. It has produced some good results. However, I truly believe TM, with DL supporting him, are heading the Kings down the wrong road in the pursuit of the Cup. DL has brought better talent on board but in the end only a Stanley Cup will soothe the soul of long suffering Kings fans. I fear they both are following to closely the Flyers model which insures some success but has not brought a Cup to Philly in thirty six years.
scepin Reply:
May 24th, 2011 at 7:47 am
@quisp, Is that a hickey I see on Murray’s behind?
[Reply]
jess Reply:
May 26th, 2011 at 3:21 pm
@quisp,
Well said and have been waiting for an in depth exchange like this about TM and his methods all season.
@ Everyone else, interesting that the term “hater” (which is actually a thought / behavioral control mechanism) and is used quite effectivly to shut down those who disent. Be very careful with that word as the use of it puts the future of free speech in jeopardy.
For those who know me understand my position on TM and it comes mainly from sarcasm. There is no hate in me and I like to see posts from both sides so keep it going!
Thanks to everyone.
[Reply]
nykingfan Reply:
May 24th, 2011 at 5:02 am
@Player-X,
That was pretty funny!
[Reply]
scepin Reply:
May 24th, 2011 at 7:45 am
@Player-X, You may have said it, but lots of us think it!
[Reply]
Player-X Reply:
May 24th, 2011 at 10:37 am
I have no idea what sponsored such a huge amount of response, it is ironic to me that of all the posts I have made that were long, detailed, and I believed were pointed and relevant, that this little drive-by swipe ended up generating the most content. Of course, most of it is due to Quisp’s first reply to Hat Trick and me, so Quisp gets a five-minute major for instigating.
In response to Quisp; I was mocking people that parrot the few informed people that object reasonably to Murray’s shortcomings. Most of the “fire Murray,” or “Murray has to go” types only rail at the few, and I believe, generally improving shortcomings from the team. Sorry if you feel like my “parody” was not effective; next time I feel like I need someone to do an editing pass I will keep you in mind. As for your theory that the only way for the Kings to win being based on perfect execution by the Kings coupled with imperfect execution by their opponent, etc., (paragraphs 3), or the idea that the system requires the Kings be comprised of interchangeable parts which creates a vulnerability (paragraph 5), I do agree that some people think that, and that you have expressed correctly points of view held by some, but I disagree with the positions. I will make the reasons clear later.
At Osaka; really liked your interchanges with Dominick and Hat Trick, where you expressed your objection to the extremeness of some posts, making clear that belief without reason expressed over-heatedly is irrational. Dominick is one of my favorite people here, and we disagree to some degree on this topic but never angrily and always with an actual perspective based on observation and logic. Hat Trick is also making some good arguments without being nasty or condescending, and I respect his POV although again, on this topic we pretty much disagree.
OK, so here’s my reasoning on the “system” being productive, and not necessarily “stifling” or “stultifying” (nod to Poe, he first used stultifying in another post. Stultifying!! Nice…).
I love this team. I respect their heart, their commitment, their growth, and their courage. I think Murray was faced with a team, when he first came here, that had serious holes in the lineup. I cannot blame him for instituting a defense-first policy given the personnel.
As the signings have progressed, Lombardi has lured excellent players where they would not previously go; nobody wanted to be a free agent here except for your Roenicks, or Anson Carter, or any other of the big dollar busts. Smyth, Scuderi, Mitchell, these are clearly a step up in quality. One could easily think that Lombardi has focused primarily on defensive signings, but that is not true. Williams is here, Smyth is here, he tried for Kovaljerk, Penner is here, etc. Lombardi has had higher profile success at defensemen, with a better average of success, but he has not ignored offensive players, he just hasn’t had equal success, yet.
Knowing the prevailing lack of scoring punch, Murray has done wonders with this team. Most of the primary top 6 scorers and the offensive-minded D-men are either very young (Kopi, Brown, Simmonds, Johnson, Doughty, Martinez) or, let’s say, at the far side of prime (Smyth, Handzus). Only Stoll, Williams, Penner, Parse and Ponikarovsky are in the golden ages of experience combined with talent. Parse, injured. Williams has performed well, and so has Stoll. Penner came in out of shape, went from mediocre to bad, but he was not here when the “system’ was formed, anyway. Ponikarovsky is the only long-term disappointment, having enough games to have produced but having failed to do so. Poni did provide value to the team, but this is about scorers being stifled.
To point out that we score fewer goals and therefore it’s bad is a one-sided argument. The counter to that is that we win more games and get into the playoffs. This does not mean that Murray intends, or wants, to keep scoring down, he just wants to keep winning, and when the personnel either more fully blossoms (Brown, Kopi, Parse, Penner) or is augmented by trade or signing, it is ludicrous to say that Murray and the Kings would not adjust to foster an increased output. But the main point is, it hasn’t happened yet, so it cannot be known, yet.
To think that the team would NOT want to score more is, and I am being kind here, counter-intuitive. Murray wants more shots, he endorsed Doughty’s joining and leading the rush in the playoffs when he had the 4 point game, and he gave tons of ice-time to the Train, the Brain and the Pain line when they were buzzing offensively. (Simmonds, Richardson and Clifford)
It’s easy to say that since we haven’t won the Cup with a particular system, we can NEVER win the Cup using that system. This is foolish; 29 teams don’t win the Cup every year, and they don’t all abandon whatever system they use because they did not win it all.
Where others see stagnation offensively, and failure overall, I see progress and the building of a true foundation. Progress, especially in sports, is not required to be a linear progression of constant improvement. There are values in the negatives, as learning tools, as reminders and as motivators.
The Kings were clearly capable of winning the playoff series against both Vancouver last year and San Jose this year. Of course, that is conjecture, since they did not win them, but it makes sense to believe that going 6 games, dominating the Sharks in game 2, going up 4 to nothing in game 3, these were all positives that proved the Kings belong. Losing game 3 was unusual, but it’s not accurate to say it was out of character because character is defined by the events that occurred. Usually, the Kings would have played better defensively, but they didn’t that game. Still, one cannot take away the success of the game 1 OT loss, the game-2 win and the 4-goal lead in game 3, because those things happened, too.
Consistency is expected, but inconsistency is typical of younger teams, and the Kings certainly qualify as a very young team. But, they are able to do all the things needed to win, at various times. I just happen to believe this is part of the process, and that the Kings will continue to improve, and become more consistent in their ability, and from that will come wins.
Also, the whole idea that Murray stifles offense is not supported by anyone in the most critical way; tell me what Murray does, or instructs the players to do or not do. All I hear is about player’s numbers, or guys that were mopes like Boyle and Purcell but years later found their game with other teams. Everybody complains about the system without being specific as to what the particular elements of the system it is that they think is stifling. If anybody wants to really have a productive discussion, I think that it’s necessary to be quite a bit more specific. I tried this, but not many people responded. Check out this post if you really want to talk.
http://lakingsinsider.com/2011/05/18/moller-status-update/ Use the find feature for Player-X, where I respond to Bobby Scribe.
[Reply]
Dominick Reply:
May 24th, 2011 at 10:52 am
@Player-X,
Thank you for the compliment. The respect is mutual, and very appreciated. Very well thought out post also.
[Reply]
Dominick Reply:
May 24th, 2011 at 12:17 pm
@Player-X,
Sorry to add this in so late, but I just followed through. I wanted to add that I went back and read the posts in your link, and I did point out specifics, and enjoyed your response very much.
[Reply]
Player-X Reply:
May 24th, 2011 at 5:46 pm
@Dominick, Thanks Dom
Player-X Reply:
May 24th, 2011 at 5:50 pm
@Dominick, Yeah, I did not mean that you were vague, or had not been specific about changes, I shoulda said that you and snbrdsummit were the only ones to engage in specifics. Not suprisingly, yours and snbrdsummits views are also moderate, in additioon to well-informed, and do not fall into those “knee-jerk” quoters I referred to at the start of this whole thing as “haters.”
PP Anybody? Reply:
May 24th, 2011 at 2:19 pm
@Player-X, Taking exception to your counter that we won more games than we lost due to our current system of play. If you look at the stats, we only won 36 games in regulation, and have a total of 36 losses in regulation plus OT. The 10 shootout wins don’t really reflect any system advantage, that’s completely left up to the shooter and the goalie. If anything, if we are to be playoff contenders, we are looking at a 50/50 team going into the playoffs. That’s not really saying that much.
[Reply]
Player-X Reply:
May 24th, 2011 at 10:13 pm
@PP Anybody?, The point was that the team got into the playoffs and looked like the team belonged there, and all that despite long losing streaks, losing our top player and being “stifled” by Terry Murray. Your stat, in my mind, does not detract fromn the team’s accomplishments. For the record, I want us to score more and feel we need to score more, that is not the debate. The debate is whether people are correct in saying that Murray’s system neuters otherwise prolific scorers, and whether the team can learn to score more under Murray.
puddle Reply:
May 24th, 2011 at 4:32 pm
@Player-X, Great post.
[Reply]
Player-X Reply:
May 24th, 2011 at 5:47 pm
@puddle, Thanks Puddle
Osaka Reply:
May 24th, 2011 at 5:10 pm
@Player-X, Nicely done! Best post I’ve read.
[Reply]
Player-X Reply:
May 24th, 2011 at 5:47 pm
@Osaka, Thanks Osaka, salute.
Hat trick Reply:
May 25th, 2011 at 12:20 am
@Player-X, Wow I wrote up this whole thing and I hit the submit button and it got lost. Well I’ll try again. Maybe I was a little too long winded so I’ll get right to the point.
I’ve read your previous post and I here’s my assessment as to why TM’s system is stifling. Puck possession, speed and creativity. As you stated the offensive system is primarily dump and chase. That’s where my problem is. So the forwards or D will gain the red line and then dump it into the zone. Ideally you would want to ring it around the boards and hope that the goalie doesn’t stop it first. Have your opposite wing get in there and retrieve the puck.
If you watch the teams that are still in it, the majority of the time they will carry the puck into the zone rather than dumping it into the zone. Puck possession is critical. Without puck possession it’s going to be very difficult to score. I think we can agree on that. So by dumping in the puck, you are then relinquishing possession in hopes of then regaining possession through the chase. You will end up along the corners digging it out with the D. But there’s no guarantee that that will happen. Also, if the goalie is there in time to stop the puck, most likely the D will then take the puck and then break out of their zone and now up through neutral ice.
By carrying the puck into the zone, you retain puck possession. Also in order to successfully skate into the zone with the puck, you must have speed entering the zone. This will back off defenders or they run the high risk of getting burned. Now by entering the zone with the puck, there are several options available to the carrier. 1) Skate in, pull up and wait for others to join the attack. SJ did this masterfully against the Kings and that’s how they won it with that weakside D joining and then scoring. 2) Skate in and do circle move (Gretzky move). It’s kinda like pulling up but you’re now circling to create some time and space for others to join the attack. Maybe there’s someone to pass to or if not you can then pass down low to start a cycle. 3) If there’s enough room you can carry the puck behind the net. You can stop behind the net if you have the opportunity and look for someone to pass to. Or you can carry the puck on through to the other side and pass to someone. 4) Simply shoot the puck on net.
Is it easy to do? No. It takes skill and Creativity. But teams are doing it and doing it well. By retaining puck possession they now have the advantage because they simply have the puck and Speed.
Is the dump and chase obsolete? No it never will be. There will always be a need for it. Sometimes you just want/need to get the puck deep and that’s the perfect thing to do. It is the most safest system no doubt because by dumping the puck deep there’s very little chance the other team is going to score from 200′ away. There’s little creativity in that. You’re simply dumping and then chasing, hoping to then regain possession.
If you look at TB and Guy Boucher’s D system he implements a 1-3-1 system through the neutral zone. 1 guy up, 3 aside and 1 back. The first guy attempts to cut off the one trying to enter the zone and forces them to dump the puck in. Once they dump the puck in the deepest guy goes and retrieves it and then starts the breakout. They Want the guy to dump the puck in.
Once teams know that is your primary offensive system, it’s relatively easy to defend because that’s what they are expecting from you the majority of the time. They know that your forward or D is merely trying to gain the red line and then dumping it in. Which again is necessary at times but it is Old NHL. The new NHL now has no red line (two line passes). Hooking is called much, much easier nowadays whereas before you can basically waterski behind the guy. Interference. I don’t remember them really calling interference unless it’s goalie interference. Holding the simplest of holds will now get you in the box. The NHL did this to open the game up more. To make it more faster.
So it opens up the game for those skilled players. Ovechkin, Crosby, Kane(this guy is incredible), Datsuk, Stamkos, etc, etc are now able to showcase their skills more. As a result there is more scoring. In the old NHL if you’re down 4-0 you’re pretty much done. Now a 4-0 lead is sketchy but certainly not out of reach for a comeback.
If you watch Vancouver or TB, watch how they go through the neutral zone. Their passing patterns (skating diagonally and north/south) they are creating speed through the zone. They are looking for that guy to then enter the zone With the puck. Puck possession. Now your odds are much better in terms of scoring chances. Dump and chase you can only hope that you regain possession.
So the system lacks a lot of creativity and that is mirrored in the PP. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist for another team to watch video of the PP and see a pattern there and then defend against it. Creativity, and of course skill, is king in this new NHL. It is what elevates a good team into a dangerous team.
The D is great. Goaltending is solid. I couldn’t be happier with Quick. But I feel that TM can’t adjust or maybe won’t adjust to the new NHL and it costs the Kings. I think my earlier post was better but I think you get what I’m trying to illustrate here.
[Reply]
CB14 Reply:
May 25th, 2011 at 12:35 am
@Hat trick, This is a terriffic post. Great Job Mr. Trick
I think the best line is, “Dump and chase you can only hope that you regain possession.” Exactly the reason why Dumping the Puck in and chasing it down should be the LAST option when trying to get the puck into the offensive zone, not the first.
Crown Royal Reply:
May 25th, 2011 at 6:55 am
@Hat trick,
Very good post! I’m sure I fall into the category of being one of the “haters” which is a convenient (and derogatory) term used for those of us who are frustrated by and don’t believe in TM and his system. You’ve made some good, basic points about what’s wrong with TM.
In my view it extends to the fact that he is also a poor bench coach who can’t see the optimum player combinations or adjust quickly in real game time. Even if his system could get the Kings deep in the playoffs he will blow it in the end with his lack of coaching ability during games.
I understand the arguments many TM support make here. The Kings have improved. The players for the most part seem motivated. We have gained points in the standings. TM deserves credit for those things. His system and coaching style insures a certain degree of success because he’s organized and the players are working pretty hard. My concern is that there’s ultimately a limit to this success utilizing his outdated system and poor bench coaching mentality. In the end we will not be able to win the Cup with TM coaching the Kings. Are we currently better with him? Yes, I agree we are. My concern is the long range one.
Thanks,Hat trick, for taking the time to re-write your post. It is appreciated!
Player-X Reply:
May 25th, 2011 at 8:31 am
@Hat trick, Great post man! Thanks for taking the time.
I agree that the optimal is a higher percentage of carry-in and rushes. I somewhat disagree about the predominance of it in the playoff games, but I don’t have numbers so cannot really dispute your statement, but I do see many instances from both teams where the dump and chase is used. It is true that it would be good if the Kings carried it in more.
However, I do not think that Terry Murray actually discourages rushes or carries. I don’t think his system prevents it or discourages it, I just think the Kings are still developing their offensive “vocabulary” or “toolkit” and that we see them fall into redundant habits. I cannot say whether Murray fails at coach by not trying to teach them, or whether the players don’t follow the instructions, or which one more or less if both. The Kings do have a very good fore-check, they do establish possession very well in the o-zone, so the method of getting there is less important than what is done once possession is established. The ring-around is only another way to establish possession, it is not really a direct shot-producing play.
My problem is that the Kings do not move from a deep cycle to the shot on goal well yet. Again, I believe this is not prevented by Murray’s system; it is just a development that is still in progress. The creativity I want improved comes from tight little passes to guys that look covered but whose stick can reach the puck, like the Marchand goal in the last Bruins game, or like throwing a pass over the correct shoulder to a guy in football where the defender is all over him but the QB puts it where only the receiver can reach it. Our young guys need to develop the in-zone passing game where the edge in coverage is very small, but big enough to hit the right guy’s stick.
AS far as the 1-3-1, that system is designed specifically, in my opinion, to negate the rush and force a dump-in. The back guy is there to win the retrieval, but the 3 across stop at their own blue line, they do not back in at all, and that is why you hear the commentators talking about the 1-3-1 and Olcyk saying “you gotta recognize that and create offense off the dump-in.”
I agree about rushes, but it is a small difference in balance between the rushing and dumping it in. Vancouver does rush the puck quite a bit, but not from all lines. Similarly, I see the Kopi line doing more rushes than the Handzus line, and actually from memory it seems like the Richardson line (I like the Train, the Brain and the Pain for Simmonds, Richie and Clifford) was able to rush the puck in by using their speed.
Again, I don’t have numbers to back this up, and actually neither do you, but I agree it should be more rushes.
My point is that I don’t think Murray necessarily forbids this, or the system dictates against it, it is just a skill that is very difficult, can be risky especially for a younger team, and that with the skill level of the current roster (let’s be honest, we can agree that the top 6 is not chock full of prime creative players) the development of the rush style of game is still happening.
Thanks for the great response, salute. Fun to debate when it is kept clean…
Player-X Reply:
May 25th, 2011 at 8:50 am
@Hat trick, Also, I compose in Word now, cuz I lost some long stuff too, it’s a killer so much respect for the do-over… Plus Word gives spell check, so I compose and edit there and then copy/paste it into here…
Hat trick Reply:
May 25th, 2011 at 11:52 am
@Crown Royal, I agree with you. That’s the other aspect of TM that concerns me. Going deep into the playoffs takes skill upon the part of the coach. He’s got to know, recognize and adjust according to what the situation needs. Call a timeout or pull the goalie or change the lines up.
And I agree that lack of ability is not good for the team long term to the destination of cup champs. So I don’t believe that he’s the guy. Has he done a poor or lousy job? No I think he’s done a relatively good job but to that end I believe he’s reached his coaching potential or somewhere very close to it.
We can talk about the PP for days but that’s something that I just don’t understand. After how many games did he finally do something with it? What about that Simmers Richie Cliffy line that was so dangerous in the playoffs. Didn’t he have those guys all season long? Yet bench Richardson in place for Westgarth are you kidding me??? Maybe some games it was necessary but for the amount of games that he did get scratched for him.
That lack in coaching definitely concerns me. Going to the cup and failing to make the right adjustments at the right time greatly increases the odds that you will not be successful. So I think he’s a good coach he’s just not a great coach and I don’t feel he’s the one to lead the team to the cup.
Player-X Reply:
May 25th, 2011 at 12:02 pm
@Crown Royal, Nice post Crown, position totally clear. Perhaps your doubts would be assuaged (o yes i used it, cuz Poe use stultifying the other day and I gotta keep up) by the fact that last season, 2009-2010, the Kings were 9th in goals scored per game, and that was the same system used this year.. (That is pretty damn good when coupled with being 9th in goals against, also. It becomes especially good when our goals againsst included those given up by last year’s 20th ranked penalty kill)
Also, the PP was 7th overall in 2009-2010, which probably accounted fully for the difference in goals. This fact can work both ways, saying that without a PP we were revealed to lack offense, or else saying that the PP we so abhor can come to life and generate goals. Since we went from 20th in PK to 3rd, and went from 9th in goals against to 6th, any increase from the PP would mean wins, and if you add wins to 98 points you get into some very optimism-inspired territory.
Hat trick Reply:
May 25th, 2011 at 12:06 pm
@Player-X,
I guess we’ll just agree to disagree. We shall find out next season.
But yes that Richie line in the playoffs was very dangerous and SJ knew it. The question is why were they so dangerous? What made them dangerous? If you remember how they played, and I think you do, they were fairly aggressive and fast with lots of puck possession.
The cycle is an issue and yes to a point I agree that it is player development. Those really good players will make those subtle little plays like they will fake a pass or delay here or delay there and that creates time and space (Datsuk comes to mind). He’s just an extraordinary player. Unfortunately we don’t have him. But I stated earlier even if we had Ovechkin, Crosby and St Louis under TM current system do you really believe that those guys could and would thrive in it?
So I hope you’re right because I guess TM will still be on the bench this upcoming season. I just want a cup I’m over mediocrity in LA.
Player-X Reply:
May 25th, 2011 at 12:29 pm
@Hat trick, but if Richie’s line did what you wanted, skate diagonally with speed, carry it in and maintain possession, and they did it under Murray, why is that not evidence that Murray is okay with that, or that the system allows that? They got lots of ice time when they were effective, and it took SJ until game 6 to figure out how to stop them. We just didn’t have the two punch in the one-two punch scenario then, lacking Kopi. I am not saying we shouldn’t adopt the style you describe, I am saying that when possible, the Kings do it, and that it is not discouraged but rather is a developing ability that is allowed and encouraged. Those guys were the threat you describe, how is that bad?
Good fun, R-E-S-P-E-C-T. Yes it’s a fat lady singing, but it’s just Aretha.
Hat trick Reply:
May 25th, 2011 at 1:50 pm
@Player-X, Yes but you’re missing my point. It took TM all the way into the playoffs to put that line together when he’s had them all season long. If each of those guys were acquired at the deadline then that’s another story. I am wondering what in the world took him so long. I’m no NHL head coach but I mean cmon couldn’t you see that line together at some point in the reg season??? Doesn’t bode well with me.
Saw both of these guys last july at El Segundo. Berube didnt look too bad for a young guy, but Vey didnt stand out at all amongst our junior and AHL players. Keep this in mind though, Trevor Lewis looked invisible for years at our rookie camps and I had wondered if maybe he was a bust. As it turned out, like Martinez, he wasnt ready until 22 or 23. In the past, alot of players didnt make it unil 24 or 25, with Dean here it seems like they develop a little quicker so far, and with the scoring potential Vey has, hopefully he has a better camp this year.
[Reply]
awesome news! Now they will get to “develop” for 10 years in the minors so they can “learn” how to play Dean’s way!
[Reply]
10 more to go DL. Guys I hope to see, at the very least, signed to 2 way entry level contracts soon
Fransson
Zatkoff
Cliche
Holloway
Zeiler (UFA)
Clune
that’s at the very least 6 from the pipeline. Interesting to see if DL keeps all 10.
[Reply]
puck73 Reply:
May 23rd, 2011 at 3:37 pm
@Dominick, Good post, but trust me on this..as far as Fransson goes, he has a LOOONG WAAAY ta go before he is NHL ready. I caught his act at the rookie camp and he was getting burnt to the inside in his own zone by AHL and junior prospects a like ! This kid wouldnt go to Manchester to be properly trained by Mark Morris and his staff so dont look for him in a Kings uniform anytime soon because guys like Deslauriers, Muzzin, and Hickey are easily better.
[Reply]
Dominick Reply:
May 23rd, 2011 at 3:43 pm
@puck73, Interesting case with Deslauriers. He isn’t listed on capgeek. What’s his deal? Is he signed already to a long term? Or is he another one that DL has to lock up?
[Reply]
puck73 Reply:
May 23rd, 2011 at 3:50 pm
@Dominick, Dont know his contract situation, but the Kings would be foolish to let him get away. This kids hockey sense for a 20 year old is so good that IMO he is a cant miss. He has had back to back plus 20 seasons in the juniors, and if you had watched him in the rookie camps like some of us have the last 2 seasons this kids hockey IQ was better then anyone’s his own age. I expect Niclas to have a solid year in Manchester under the watchfull eyes of Mark Morris and Ron Hextall.
jet Reply:
May 23rd, 2011 at 4:17 pm
@Dominick, I agree with Puck on Des, I thought he was the second best player out there behind Muzzin. But, he did have much better hockey sense then Muzzin. He was much better in his own zone last summer than the year before.
I can hardly wait for rookie camp. It is great to see how much improvement our younger players have made.
I hope the Kings make it at least 5 days. It would be great if they could keep the ice clean so the boys can get use to playing with speed. It would also be nice if an alum could speak to the boys one afternoon about commitment to the game. Maybe Luc, Gretz, Dionne.
When does camp start
Ravens Reply:
May 23rd, 2011 at 4:42 pm
@Dominick, I’m also on the Deslauriers wagon, love that kid, in my opinion one of the brightest prospects along with Muzzin, Hickey(Yes Hickey),Kitsyn and Schenn
PP Anybody? Reply:
May 23rd, 2011 at 3:58 pm
@Dominick, I don’t see them keeping Clune or Zeiler. With Simmonds, and the way Clifford came in, and with Jordan Nolan at Manchester, I don’t see those guys ever making it here. Not enough size or skill, and if we have players with more size and bring the same energy and grit, just doesn’t seem likely that they will be taking up roster spots even in Manchester.
[Reply]
quisp Reply:
May 23rd, 2011 at 5:22 pm
@Dominick,
can’t sign them all. 50-contract limit.
re deslaurier
he is unsigned and needs to be signed by 6/1. he is by far the most important of the unsigned draft picks.
I would be surprised if both zeiler AND clune are re-signed, but also surprised if neither is.
I doubt Fransson is still in anyone’s plans. could be wrong.
there’s also garrett roe, michael pelech and podge turnbull. probably roe gets signed and the other two don’t. just a guess.
interesting that berube got his contract before zatkoff extended. i thought z was going to stay, but maybe not.
[Reply]
puck73 Reply:
May 23rd, 2011 at 5:32 pm
@quisp, Good post, totally agree. Btw, you might be right about Berube and Zatkoff..perhaps it is because Martin Jones came on so strong in Manchester this season?
[Reply]
CB14 Reply:
May 23rd, 2011 at 6:03 pm
@puck73, With all these young talented goalies, I would like to see DL trade either Bernier or Quick for a top 6 (mabye 3) forward if he can’t land Richards in the off-season. After Richards the list of forwards drops off rapidly. Tanguay and Selanne are the next best forwards according to a list I saw, and I wouldn’t want either of them.
quisp Reply:
May 23rd, 2011 at 10:57 pm
@cb14
I’m categorically opposed to trading either bernier or quick, but that’s actually off-topic of my response to your comment.
the thing about trading for a big top six player is this: we can’t sign richards because there is no cap room. it may look like there is, but there isn’t because of the doughty contract. since there is no cap room, the only way to bring in a top-six guy is through trade. and the only way to make that work is to send equivalent salary back.
neither bernier or quick get paid enough to make a difference. i’ll give you a controversial example. zach parise. probably will get 6-7MM a year. maybe not, what do i know. but assume that’s what he’ll get. the kings could send green and brown (about $6MM cap hit total) to NJD for parise. if that seems crazy, swap the players out for others of equal salary. i mention parise because he actually seems vulnerable right now (lamoriello seems almost certain to go to arbitration on his contract)
in any case, note that, when you’re at the cap ceiling, it doesn’t matter if you trade for big players or sign them as UFAs, because either way you have to give up players, if only just to make room for the guy’s salary.
Osaka Reply:
May 23rd, 2011 at 11:57 pm
@Quisp
Symths no movement clause and 6 million cap hit hurts. If Penner doesn’t produce the 4 million is another big hit. Makes me wonder if Dean would trade JJ since we have lots of D prospects.
CB14 Reply:
May 24th, 2011 at 12:08 am
@quisp, First of all let me just say that your posts are some of the best i’ve read, and I agree with pretty much everything you’ve said.
I don’t want to trade Quick or Bernier, I would much rather sign a top 6 forward instead, but as I said earlier there isn’t much out there besides Richards who is expensive and wanted by alot of other teams. I just don’t think with the players we have right now in the system that we use that we will be able to get past the first round of the playoffs. And even though DL has done a great job drafting players and creating the deepest talent pool in the minors, AEG expects results at the NHL level. They spent near the cap this year, and will do so next year as well, to more than likely lose in the first round of the playoffs 3 consecutive years. (I don’t like to speculate, but where are we going to improve next year?) We have no room on defense, or in net for any of our prospects, and the only forwards ready to play in the NHL are either injury prone (lokti), or not very good defensivly(Schenn and Lokti). And as we all know, if you’re not good defensivly you’re not going to play for TM. Cough Moller Cough.
With regards to Richards, I was counting on other moves to get us below the cap. Schenn would spend the entire year in the minors because his cap hit is too high, and we would have Kopi, Richards, Lokti, Richardson, and Lewis to fill the center spots. I’m sure you noticed that I left out Stoll. I would trade him. Kopi and Richards would be 1 and 2, in any order, with Lewis, Richardson, and Lokti filling in the bottom 2 spots. We don’t need a typical 3rd line Center, someone who checks and is good defensivly, because Kopi plays against the other teams top center anyways. I don’t really care what we would get in return for Stoll because there aren’t many open roster spots available if everyone’s healthy, and we don’t have the cap room to have guys making 2 million a year in the press box. Getting prospects and/or draft picks for Stoll would be fine with me if we sign Richards.
One thing I’m not sure of with the cap is Doughty’s contract. I know we have to offer him a minimum 10% increase in salary, but what does that number get based on? According to Capgeek, his cap hit was 3.475 , but his salary was only .875 . I’m pretty sure the money in-between is bonus money, but do you know what that 10% increase is based off of? I personally would offer Doughty a 1 year contract at 4 million. If we keep his cap hit low this year we will be fine the next year because of Smyth’s contract coming off the books. Penner and Mitchell also have big numbers coming off the books, but they might be re-signed for similar numbers, while Smyth will not get close to his cap hit of 6.25 .
My line-up would look like this:
Penner Kopi Williams
Smyth Richards Brown
Clifford Richardson Simmonds
Parse Lokti Lewis
Extras: Clune and Westgarth
Johnson Doughty
Mitchell Greene
Scuderi Martinez
Extra: Drewiske
Quick
Bernier
Our cap hit without Stoll next year would be 46,252,143 according to capgeek. Richardson, Simmonds, Lewis, and Martinez would all get about 1.2 million each. Clune would get 600,000 . That brings it up to 51,652,143 . Doughty’s 4 million would still leave over 6 million for Richards, based on the expected 62 million salary cap. I don’t think DL would offer him over 6 million a year. If I rember correctly he was only offering Ilya 5.5 to 6 million a year. Mabye something like a 9 year deal worth 50 million total, a little over a 5.5 million dollar cap hit. IDK, mabye I’m way off on my numbers. That’s how I would make it work. I know it would be tight next year, but if needed, you could always trade Greene or Scuderi and bring up Voynov or Muzzin to help bring the cap number down.
I might be way off with those contracts to our restricted free agents, but I’m not a g.m. They all seem relativly reasonable to me, and I don’t think DL will sign DD long term right now. He could’ve done it last off-season, but hadn’t made up his mind if he wanted to go short term(lower cap hit), or long term(higher cap hit around the 6 mil. you suggested). Only time will tell I guess.
Dominick Reply:
May 24th, 2011 at 1:18 am
@CB14,
If Richards became a King, my idea would be to drop Penner to a lower line to boost production elsewhere with Richards playing #1 left wing. Also I wouldn’t count Stoll out after next year. I personally would like to see him have a 50+ point season, and the Kings resign him, but that’s still dependant on the Kings playing more offensively this upcoming season.
Richards would give us a natural faceoff man when Kopi gets kicked out of the faceoff circle, and strength on our left side. He could play center on the 2nd power play unit, and penalty kill. Stoll’s numbers have went from 20 points, to 30 points (with a 60 point season mixed in), to 40 points (both with the Kings). If he continues heading into his prime years (27 to 32) he should be capable of a 50 point season.
I’ve talked to a Kings official and have been assured that DL will go for Richards this summer, but I’m not convinced DL can actually pull it off. I am confident about Stoll (even though I’m alone at the moment).
CB14 Reply:
May 24th, 2011 at 8:28 am
@Dominick, I too would love to see him on Kopi’s left side, and that would more than likely happen in 2 years when both Schenn and Lokti are 100% ready. After next year DL could possibly let both Smyth and Penner leave via free agency, and move Parse up to the second line and slide Richards over to the first line LW. I’d love to see a Richards-Kopi-Brown 1st line. I know some don’t see DB as a 1st line player, but with Kopi and Richards setting him up all the time, I don’t think it would be a problem.
As far as Stoll goes, I don’t see any way we keep him if we sign Richards. Like Quisp said, we’ll be over the cap if we sign Richards. The numbers I came up with left us with very little wiggle room without having Stoll. So I don’t know how we would fit under the cap with him. If we kept Stoll, we most certainly would have to get rid of Smyth or Penner. Smyth IMO is untradeable due to his high cap hit, 6.25 million. Penner’s value is so low that I can’t see DL trading him right now. He would basically be admitting that he screwed up, and I can’t see him doing that and taking 50 cents on the dollar for Penner. We could possibly trade Greene or Scuderi to get under the cap, but I don’t think DL wants to do that. He specifically said that the only reason he traded Teubert was because MG was locked up long term. Also Scuderi was a guy who wanted to come here, he wasn’t traded here, and GM’s get a bad rap among players if they sign a guy and then trade that same guy 2 years later, especially if that player has done nothing wrong and has earned that contract. It would hurt our chances of landing other free agents IMO if we did that. If you can come up with a roster that works under the cap with both Richards and Stoll, I’d like to see it.
Dominick Reply:
May 24th, 2011 at 10:13 am
@CB14,
Player-X came up with a detailed breakdown about 3 weeks ago. I honestly think it’s more trouble than it’s worth, but see his scenario being a possibility. If DL did go for it, I’m sure he has thought it through already. So based on that, I don’t mind speculating on how it would work as far as line up, but as far as shuffling players around to make him fit, I still am not completely sold on it working in our favor.
That is why I always try to add an “IF” in there somewhere.
quisp Reply:
May 24th, 2011 at 7:38 pm
@everybody re cap stuff, richards, etc.
The only (ONLY) way Lombardi is going to have cap room to sign a $5-6MM free agent is if he trades away two of the following: Smyth, Brown, Stoll, Greene, Scuderi, Mitchell, Williams, Johnson or Kopitar. The Kings will be pressed up against the cap ceiling after signing Doughty (I think he will get 5-6MM), Simmonds, Moller (yes, must qualify him and qualifying offers count against the cap), Lewis, Martinez and Richardson. I have run these numbers seventeen different ways and I promise you there’s simply no way to sign a big-ticket UFA without dumping massive salary.
Every time someone comes up with numbers that purport to show how the Kings can sign Richards without dumping salary, invariably they have Doughty signing for less than Johnson and other such pipedreams. Look, Dean could pull off a miracle, but I wouldn’t count on it.
Now, I think we all know that Lombardi is not going to sign Richards and THEN have to dump salary over the summer, when everyone knows he has to dump salary and will have him over a barrel.
Does anyone think he would start dumping salary before or at the draft, leaving big holes that can only be filled by a big signing? What if he dumps two big pieces and then Richards doesn’t sign? I don’t think he’ll do that either.
Plus, look at the list of possible salary dumps:
Kopitar — uh, no.
Smyth — NMC
Williams — too valuable
Stoll — maybe
Penner — maybe, but he’s a value stock right now
Brown — maybe, but would not be a popular move
Johnson — signed to an affordable deal; dean won’t deal him
scuderi — never
mitchell — maybe
greene — maybe
stoll, penner, mitchell or greene…seriously, trading penner would leave a big hole on the left side. i think you could deal one of mitchell or greene but not both.
which means mitchell or greene, and stoll.
we would not be able to replace stoll’s faceoff prowess, and we would be less experienced on d. in order to maybe add a top six center. worth it?
i don’t think so. because of this other big issue:
you sign brad richards you’re basically tying up C2 for the next several years, and thereby admitting that neither Schenn nor Loktionov is going to play in the top six basically ever. and that’s not good. and it’s not what lombardi wants.
the kings have a pretty full roster right now. penner/smyth/clifford/parse down the left side, kopitar/stoll/lewis/richardson/schenn/loktionov down the middle, williams/brown/simmonds/richie-lewis on the right. I think the most likely scenario is dean signs no one and everyone gets upset. the second most likely scenario is a mino trade that brings in someone not quite as good as anyone wants but which ifs with our cap structure. the third most likely scenario is a minor ufa signing. fourth, a major trade.
if i were lombardi, i would throw the moon at lamoriello for parise (for example, brown, greene, martinez), and failing that, sign no-one.
quisp Reply:
May 24th, 2011 at 7:47 pm
the other thing that wouldn’t surprise me: trading his way back into the first round. he has missed the first round once in his gm life. or maybe he’ll just trade up to the top of the second round, which is his wheelhouse after all. right now the kings’ first pick is #49.
CB14 Reply:
May 25th, 2011 at 12:28 am
@Quisp, I had DD’s salary at 4 million, lower than what you thought but still higher than JJ next season. JJ makes 3.5 next year. I think DL simply offers him a qualifying offer so he can keep his cap hit down.
I don’t understand how qualifying offers can count against the cap even if that player doesn’t play for the Kings next year. I’m not disagreeing with you, I just don’t understand that rule because the NYR have played Wade Redden in the minors the last couple of years so that his contract wouldn’t count against their cap. Mabye it’s because WR has a signed contract that guarantees him the same amount regardless of where he plays, IDK. That rule just doesn’t make sense to me. Again, i’m not disagreeing with you, i’m just confused by the rule.
Who out of BR, WS, TL, AM would get more than 1.2 mill next year? That number is higher than what DL is required to offer them, and I haven’t heard of many players refusing to sign their qualifying offers unless they are star players. I think Jason Allison did it while in Boston and that’s how we got him.
If we signed Richards and had to get rid of Stoll to free up cap space, I’d take a bag of pucks for him if that’s all anyone would offer us. I really would. Who cares that we would get pennies on the doller in return for Stoll. We’re getting a top 3 player, not top 6. The Kings roster is already full as you said, and being that we were just ranked #1 by Hockeys Future, the prospects are pretty capable as well.
Also, Richards could easily play LW. He did it in Tampa with Lecavalier, and I don’t think he would mind doing it with Kopi. That would open up the 2nd Center spot for either Schenn or Lokti after next year.
I just want to end by saying that I’m not disagreeing with you, just questioning some things. You have run the different cap issues 17 different ways, but what doesn’t jive with my thinking. I’m sorry to keep posting on this issue, but i’m someone who when i get something in my head that i think will work, i need it explained to me in detail why it won’t work. Not just with this issus, but life’s issues in general. Thanks in advance for the response, assuming you want to explain it in detail to me. And if you don’t want too, No Problemo. I enjoy reading your posts, you really know what you’re talking about.
quisp Reply:
May 26th, 2011 at 11:58 pm
@cb
qualifying offers count against the cap but they expire in two weeks. they can be extended, though. a player who doesn’t sign (e.g. patrick o’sullivan) has until, I believe, 12/1 to sign or he may not play in the NHL that season.
re richards at lw: for some reason, i wasn’t thinking about that. sure, it would make more sense for richards at LW, but then you’re saying penner is 3rd line (not a bad idea) and clifford is 4th (also not terrible) and parse is where? traded I would think. that’s one way to go. and then smyth and penner come off the books in a year and it’s richards and eventually kitsyn or toffoli on the left side. i don’t have a problem with that.
but i don’t think doughty is going to sign for $4MM.
to answer your question about which of the listed players would get more than $1.2, I would say Simmonds. but those guys aren’t the problem. you could dump stoll, as you suggest, but that will leave an experience gap down the middle, which would look something like kopitar/loktionov/schenn/lewis. i love that as a set of centers in a couple of years, but i think there needs to be a transition and i also think that’s what stoll’s purpose is this season.
oh, re qualifying offers and wade redden and all that:
I think you’re conflating a couple of different ideas. a qualifying offer is simply an offer that a team must make to a pending RFA in order to reserve the right of first refusal and/or compensation should the player subsequently be tendered an offer sheet from another team. if a team does not make a qualifying offer to such a player by the deadline, which is usually around 6/27, then the player becomes an UNRESTRICTED free agent on 7/1. If they DO make the qualifying offer by the deadline, then, on or after 7/1, the player may either accept the offer — at which point it becomes a valid SPC — or he can continue negotiating. and, like I said, he has until 12/1 (at least I think that’s the date) to accept a deal and sign an SPC, or he cant play in the NHL that season.
the wade redden thing is different. clubs have been exploiting a loophole in the CBA which allows players with gigantic contracts to be sent to the AHL in order to get their cap hits off the books. unless the player has a no movement clause, he can be sent down. the team still has to pay him his salary, but it doesnt count against the cap. presumably, this loophole will be closed next summer.
CB14 Reply:
May 27th, 2011 at 12:27 am
@quisp, Thanks for the response. That cleared up alot of questions I had. Your Hockey knowlegde is unreal. Have you been a GM or assistant GM at some point? You sure do know enough to be one IMO.
I don’t thimk DD will sign for only 4 million either, but I hope he does!
You’re absolutly right that Stoll is the perfect fit as a transition center while Schenn and Lokti develope this season. My transition center if we signed Richards would be Richards. I would play Richards at Center next year, then move him to the left wing in his second year when Schenn and/or Lokti are ready to be top 6 guys. It would work out perfect IMO because Penner, Smyth, and Parse are all UFA’s after next year, and Schenn would have a full year in Manchester to develope more. Then either he or Lokti could take over Richards spot as the 2nd line Center and DL could choose between those 3 free agents which one he wanted to bring back as the 2nd line L.W. Or as you said he could choose between Toffoli and Kitsyn. Of Course all this talk of mine is useless if Toronto or New York offer Richards an insanely crazy deal, which NY has been known to do(Drury, Gomez). Thanks Again for all the info. Your Knowledge amazes me!
quisp Reply:
May 27th, 2011 at 8:41 pm
@cb
you’re too kind. really, i just like to read and watch hockey.
CB14 Reply:
May 23rd, 2011 at 5:34 pm
@quisp, Anyone with the name of Podge Turnbull has to be signed. That has to be one of the best names i’ve ever heard. Podge Turnbull, Classic!
[Reply]
number 6 Reply:
May 24th, 2011 at 6:15 am
@CB14,
Must be Perry’s son.
jet Reply:
May 23rd, 2011 at 5:59 pm
@quisp, and Zats was player of the month at the end of the season. There must be some contract issues. We are propably going to look at drafting some college players again.
[Reply]
Dominick Reply:
May 23rd, 2011 at 6:31 pm
@jet, Interesting that you brought that up. I was reading an article that was talking about the next step in draft direction for the Kings, and they brought up going in that direction.
CB14 Reply:
May 23rd, 2011 at 6:36 pm
@jet, Do you mean players who are going to play college hockey? I think that’s what you mean so that they don’t have to be signed to contracts.
jet Reply:
May 23rd, 2011 at 6:43 pm
@jet, last year I thought that we should trade up for better talent as a 6th or 7th rounder does nothing for us any longer. But, this draft is so week I do not see anything that is not a pray project. If we take a college kid at least it is not on our dime and gives it a couple of more years.
jet Reply:
May 23rd, 2011 at 9:33 pm
@CB14, Yes, USHL players
and did I really spell weak week?
CB14 Reply:
May 23rd, 2011 at 9:45 pm
@jet, Thanks. That’s what I thought. Yes you did, and you also spelled probably, propably.
quisp Reply:
May 23rd, 2011 at 10:58 pm
@jet,
i hope he gets signed.
Oh Vey!!!!!!
[Reply]
Speaking of signings, I’m gonna guess that Poni signs with someone like the Isles, or Edmonton and scores 25+ goals next season. Or, if Richards doesn’t resign with Dallas, I could see them picking him up as well, and scoring there also. We shall see..
[Reply]
SLIM Reply:
May 23rd, 2011 at 8:26 pm
@PP Anybody?,
Could you imagine if Poni came out and score lots of
goals early in the season on another team….
This blog will be ridiculous…
Off with Terry Murray’s head…
Some would say never happen..But and that’s a big but..
[Reply]
Pesus Reply:
May 23rd, 2011 at 9:36 pm
@SLIM,
The guy couldnt score playing with crosby. Enough said.
[Reply]
Sebastian Reply:
May 24th, 2011 at 9:00 am
@Pesus, He couldnt score on Dan Cloutier
Well, hopefully with all of these high-scoring prospects coming into the fold, you’d think at least one or two of them could pan out in thr pros, right??? :/
[Reply]
Stolly on MTV Cribs – http://kings.nhl.tv/team/console.jsp?catid=731&id=115382
[Reply]
raitis Reply:
May 23rd, 2011 at 5:50 pm
@Harry,
“Richie has a hard time growing the stache’”
HA!
[Reply]
CB14 Reply:
May 23rd, 2011 at 5:52 pm
@Harry, That’s pretty cool that he still wears #28 because his grandpa told him to.
P.S. Jarret, a Porsche Cayenne is not a truck. I know because you’re a guy you like calling it a truck, but it isn’t. It’s an SUV.
[Reply]
Dominick Reply:
May 23rd, 2011 at 8:04 pm
@CB14,
Looks more like a glorified mini version of a station wagon.
[Reply]
BrokeKingsFan Reply:
May 24th, 2011 at 9:41 am
@CB14, Its not even an SUV but more of an over priced mini van with no back seat. ask anyone who owns one what sort of sport utility purposes they use it for. Most just have kids and want to have a porsche. waste of a sports car IMO. same with the new 4 door porsche. One thing that really gets to me is when people buy sports cars and get automatics. an automatic? really?
[Reply]
jet Reply:
May 24th, 2011 at 3:32 pm
@CB14, When you pay $600 for a brake job, you can call it anything you want.
[Reply]
I argree that TM will have to loosen up his D systeam and play 2 way hockey. These Kids DL drafted are all skill players and are not kick your buns type players. I am not TM fan as some of you know, but if TM loosen up and plays 2 way hockey he could go far next year and save his job, before all these prospects make head ways in the next 2 years…
If not, I will be a big TM suck fan and DL should be head of draft picks, if he cant get TM to wake up!
Lets not forget 5 year plan was about developing players, so you are on your last year DL, make it count. Not talking making the playoffs, just develope these prospects that you promised 4 years ago… TM might just get DL head of our scotting Dept soon…
[Reply]
off topic…wow is Patrice Bergeron good!
[Reply]
Dominick Reply:
May 23rd, 2011 at 8:05 pm
@Ravens, definately.
[Reply]
good news, now go sign Toffoli!!!
[Reply]
KINGSURFER Reply:
May 23rd, 2011 at 7:12 pm
@KINGSURFER, oh wait, they already did. My bad, didn’t have my shades on and it was too bright!
[Reply]
SLIM Reply:
May 23rd, 2011 at 8:17 pm
@KINGSURFER,
Really can’t wait to see this guy play..
From what i’ve read about him and how
he surpassed everyones expectations…
Could be in a league of his own…Which is what his coach said…
[Reply]
Vey and Toffoli, both RWers r heading to Manchester…add on Brandon Kozun as a RWer and now only option is the Swedish Elite League
[Reply]
CB14 Reply:
May 23rd, 2011 at 8:39 pm
@Paul G, I believe, not certain, that Toffoli will still be in juniors next year as he is only 19. Not sure though.
[Reply]
Token Reply:
May 24th, 2011 at 7:38 am
@CB14, Nah, DL will play him for 7 games every third game then have him sit a couple months just to send him to the World Juniors then he goes back to his junior club. After that a year or two in manchester.
[Reply]
CB14 Reply:
May 24th, 2011 at 8:30 am
@Token, haha!
PP Anybody? Reply:
May 23rd, 2011 at 10:49 pm
@Paul G, Vey was playing at center for Medicine Hat.
[Reply]
Dominick Reply:
May 24th, 2011 at 8:34 am
@PP Anybody?,
Seems like a lot of centers in the Kings prospect pool are shuffled around between right wing/centers.
Moller
Toffoli
Loktionov
Vey
Cliche
I wonder if there’s some reason that centers are not used as left wingers. None of our centers are used as left wingers, but most are transfered to the right side.
[Reply]
Bluecoconuts Reply:
May 24th, 2011 at 9:26 am
@Dominick, Kitsyn plays LW I believe… And I thought I read Toffoli can play left or right, but he likes right more..
Either way, a line of Kitsyn-Schenn-Toffoli could be a pretty good scoring threat in 2 years.
Dominick Reply:
May 24th, 2011 at 9:41 am
Kitsyn is listed by HF as a LW. THN has him listed LW also. Does he play center? Not sure on Toffoli being able to play the left, 3 other sites have him listed RW, or center. I’ll take your word on it.
Token Reply:
May 24th, 2011 at 10:03 am
@Dominick, They played Lokti on left wing. Didn’t work out.
Kitsyn is a right shot natural left winger.
Holloway was groomed as a right shot left winger but plays any forward position equally well. I have a feeling he is being groomed as a Richardson replacement, utility knife type player. Won’t be surprised if he takes Harrold’s seat on the bench. Good whiskey I hear in the press box.
Btw, the only two guys that didn’t play left wing for Kopi are Schenn and Wesgarth. One can only hope that doesn’t happen.
Dominick Reply:
May 24th, 2011 at 10:33 am
My point was there alot of Centers being groomed for the right side. With the big club hurting on the left side for so long, they don’t have a lot of centers that play left side. Moller and Lokti are prime examples. Both those guys spent their entire time in Manchester playing Center or Right wing.
Holloway is listed as a left winger. Kitsyn is listed as a left wing, but where are the Centers who are being groomed for the left side? I listed 5 who play the right or Center. A couple others (like Schenn) are centers only.
Truthfully, by the looks of it…
Aren’t we really looking a offensively competing
Team in a couple of years from now..
Seems like next year will be status Quo…
Love to see Schenn and especially Lokti
playing in next year’s season…but how
feasable is that?
[Reply]
CB14 Reply:
May 23rd, 2011 at 8:44 pm
@SLIM, If they miss on Richards, and don’t bring Zues back, I think it’s 50-50 on both of them being with the Kings next year. I know TM probably doesn’t want 2 rookie centers, but if they each play like they are capable of, I don’t think he would have a choice. I think one of them will be with the Kings for sure if they don’t have Zues and Richards. If they get either Zues or Richards, I think they both stay in Manchester to improve their defensive play because we all know TM won’t play them if they are even a hint below average defensivly.
[Reply]
Ravens Reply:
May 23rd, 2011 at 8:54 pm
@SLIM, that’s what I’m thinking 2 years away unles a big trade. The only way those two get in is by way of injury, I think Lokti has the better chance of starting the year here, just because of his high hockey IQ. and his knowledge of TM’s system.
[Reply]
Token Reply:
May 24th, 2011 at 8:06 am
@SLIM, I wouldn’t call it status quo. The six rookies we had this year have improved significantly by playoff time and strong lines have been built around that.
Both Lokti and Schenn played very well on the Power Play.
Penner WILL BE much better. It’s a contract year for him.
Brown might get a real center for a full season. Oh the humanity!
Westy learned how to skate and pass.
I would guess that Lokti is in for C2. He has shown that he can handle it and that means allot to DL/TM methods.
Schenn will have a shot depending on cap situation and what happens with Lewis & Richardson contracts. If Dean signs both, Schenn may get a year in Manchester.
Other than that, don’t see any other rookie not named Voynov being in the running.
[Reply]
number 6 Reply:
May 24th, 2011 at 9:26 am
@Token,
Say what you will about Penner but I don’t go for it….. even a little. If he goes crazy and scores 40 goals…. so what. If it takes a player a contract year to play, is that really the sort of player you want on your team.
Imagine the Redwings if they had a team with guys who really bring it….. oh, but it’s gotta be their contract year to be bothered.
Don’t think they’d have quite so many banners hanging right now.
And then what does DL do if he does have a good year? Trade him while the getting is good? Sign him knowing that unless it’s a contract year Penner can’t really be bothered. Plus sign him at an outrageous price as he’ll be UFA. I suppose I for one am less enthused than some other people.
[Reply]
Dominick Reply:
May 24th, 2011 at 9:33 am
@number 6,
Willy did it last season, and the Kings were lucky to sign him. I’m just sayin.
fsd1 Reply:
May 24th, 2011 at 10:04 am
@number 6, it isnt about contract year, it is about the system that everyone seems to hate, Need to give Penner a break, give him the summer to get in Kings shape, learn the system and clean up the garbage in his life and then i think you will see someone who is quite capable of make a huge contribution to this team.
Token Reply:
May 24th, 2011 at 10:17 am
@number 6, I’m not arguing that he’s the second coming of Lemieux, Penns is an extra year rental. He simply buys us enough time to either work a good deal and/or give Parse a crack at the job.
I’ve said this from day one: Penns is a complimentary player to a star center. We got one of those so it did and should work out well.
Kind of like James Neil. With Brad Richards he rocks, with Pens sans Crosby and Malkin he sucks. Complimentary player.
number 6 Reply:
May 24th, 2011 at 10:35 am
@Token,
Just read your response. Point well taken.
[Reply]
Stuart Reply:
May 24th, 2011 at 12:40 pm
@Token, add to this that I don’t see Lokti being healthy for 60, let alone 82, games, so there is a good chance that Schenn will see the big club at some point…
[Reply]
Purcell! Purcell! then what.He did score in one game and that brings chaos in our lines.did he score today?
[Reply]
Funny how the signing of 2 young players turns into a whine fest. over Murray who will not be the coach after his current deal is up unless progress is made by the team.
[Reply]
CB14 Reply:
May 24th, 2011 at 12:20 am
@Bkrs-Bud, Were you not following yesterday? It was the same thing. I’m not complaining because I’m one of them “whineing” over Murray. Why can’t we discuss Terry Murray? He is the Head Coach after all, it’s not like we’re debating over the equipment trainer or one of the usher’s. Besides, it’s not like there is much else going on with the Kings to discuss, unfortunatly. I for one don’t want to see another year where progress isn’t made. I’d rather he be gone now and not have to wait till his contract is up.
[Reply]
fsd1 Reply:
May 24th, 2011 at 8:58 am
@CB14, because there are some rules here about constantly whining the same thing over and over, perhaps the coach of Boston is available, they have the same system so I’m sure they are going to fire their coach cause they haven’t accomplished anything with a defensive system. I hope they sign TM to a 3 year extension. Let the whining commence again……
[Reply]
Dominick Reply:
May 24th, 2011 at 9:01 am
@fsd1, Not even close with Boston. Whining about whining is just redundant isn’t it?
fsd1 Reply:
May 24th, 2011 at 10:05 am
@fsd1, @Dominick, are you still whining about it?
fsd1 Reply:
May 24th, 2011 at 10:05 am
@fsd1, lol
PP Anybody? Reply:
May 24th, 2011 at 4:22 pm
@fsd1, Boston plays a COMPLETELY different system than us. Just cause they have good defensive numbers, doesn’t automatically mean that they play the same way. Try watching the TB vs Boston series. They take waaaaay more chances and depend on their offensive attack to hem the other team in, which is in the “best defense is a good offense” camp, and apparently seem to be quite successful with it.
Bkrs-Bud Reply:
May 25th, 2011 at 12:32 am
@CB14, Sorry man they just gave him a 3 yr extension, his team made the playoffs unless the team falls off a cliff this year he will finish his deal at least.
[Reply]
CB14 Reply:
May 25th, 2011 at 12:37 am
@Bkrs-Bud, Darn
Here are some of prospects that could get the call by the new year…
Brayden Schenn – player gets hurt or Loki not ready, but will be on the team by Jan
Andrei Loktionov – Huz is not signed he will make the team
Slava Voynov – JJ or DD get hurt call up,but I have a feeling he will be on the team come Jan
Thomas Hickey – JJ or DD get hurt call up
Jake Muzzin – D if green or Mit get hurt call up or green is traded
Martin Jones – G if any one G gets hurt he will get the call
Bud Holloway – LW any LW out he could be called up, If hes still a king
Linden Vey – RW that will get called up if they need a RW, Long shot!!
[Reply]
Token Reply:
May 24th, 2011 at 8:24 am
@Sammuch, Great list!
Jordan Nolan – if Westy is sidelined or becomes the star scoring machine.
I think Bud Holloway may be subject to waivers next season. That may limit him to making the team from camp. He is 23 and has played Manchester for three years.
[Reply]
look at purcell now in tampa…
[Reply]
Sebastian Reply:
May 24th, 2011 at 8:50 am
@jason, doesnt he look terrible with a beard?
[Reply]
Sebastian Reply:
May 24th, 2011 at 9:01 am
@Sebastian, that chipped tooth dont help either.
[Reply]
Welcome to the club!
[Reply]
I cringe every time Purcell scores…
2 of Lombardi’s worst moves – 2 years in a row.
1) Purcell for Halpern
2) 1st round pick & Teubert for Penner
[Reply]
kevin from toronto Reply:
May 24th, 2011 at 9:48 am
… just had to get that off my chest
[Reply]
number 6 Reply:
May 24th, 2011 at 10:32 am
@kevin from toronto,
Kevin, part of the problem is that some…. I’ll repeat that… some of the people on the blog get up in arms and want to rush to the defense of DL when we criticize something. He HAS done a good job. No question, but I still have to agree with you that those are two moves that I can’t say have helped the Kings immensely.
I stress this because imo (with the asterisk that we’ll see what happens w Penner next season, but I’m personally not hugely optimistic) both these moves concern forwards and that’s where very clearly this team is at it’s weakest.
Move for JW was mega, but I’d dread thinking what the forwards would be like had he not made the move for JW.
[Reply]
kevin from toronto Reply:
May 24th, 2011 at 10:58 am
@number 6, I have no problem with Lombardi, and often praise the job he’s done. He’s put the Kings in a great position moving forward.
I am just stressing the TWO bad moves he’s made. Time will tell with Teubert, but a 1st round pick is a 1st round pick.
It just sucks seeing Purcell excel on the Powerplay and 2nd line with Tampa, when he did nothing in Tampa… all for someone who played a handful of (bad) games and is no longer with the organization.
number 6 Reply:
May 24th, 2011 at 11:48 am
@kevin from toronto
Kevin, sounds like you’re trying to convince me (sort of). Maybe not. But I see things exactly as you do based on what you’ve written here.
I will go one step further though now that I think of it. So while be both agree that DL has put the Kings in a great position, I think one has to limit the number of errors. You’re gonna make mistakes. You’re a human being. But if he wants to win the Cup, then you’ve gotta have way more decisions going the way of the franchise than against.
I have a hard time finding poor decisions that Mike Gillis has made for Vancouver, though he did walk into a situation where the goaltending was set, the twins were set and they had drafted Kesler back in 2003. Also saw a thread someone left here that was 10 reasons why S Yzerman is GM of the year.
For whatever that’s worth.
fsd1 Reply:
May 24th, 2011 at 10:00 am
@kevin from toronto, hope you feel better, it isnt true but hope you feel better.
[Reply]
kevin from toronto Reply:
May 24th, 2011 at 10:24 am
@fsd1, oh sorry…
purcell AND a 3rd round pick for halpern.
on top of the oilers getting teubert and a 1st round, they also got a conditional pick, in exchange for fatty penner
[Reply]
jet Reply:
May 24th, 2011 at 3:41 pm
@kevin from toronto, Hey Kevin, who would you take with the first pick this draft? I just do not see anyone who is likely to make this team in 5 years.
[Reply]
Doorek Reply:
May 25th, 2011 at 10:38 am
@kevin from toronto, Tuebert cannot skate well and plays his position horribly. He had no future with los angeles and we didnt need the first round pick. Halpern for purcell was awful tho.
[Reply]
Why aren’t people calling for DL’s head? Do you really all expect Smyth to light the lamp? He is old and tired. Penner? Brown? Simmonds? There is a lot of heart, in this group, but top end, high skill talent is lacking. What do you really expect of TM?
[Reply]
Ravens Reply:
May 24th, 2011 at 3:38 pm
@Kevin, No Kidding….I think a lot of people who follow this blog might be too smart for their own good. So smart they have figured out exactly how to run this orginization, and exactly how to somehow get more talent out of this team than they actaully have, and by some sort of magic have this mostly young and inexperienced team, get some sort of implant in their heads that give them an experience they haven’t yet learned
[Reply]
PP Anybody? Reply:
May 24th, 2011 at 4:27 pm
@Ravens, Just for the sake of argument, let’s look at Boston. Are you going to tell me that they completely outskill us from top to bottom? Who are their perennial all stars? The didn’t have one single player in the top 40 in league scoring this year. Sure, they have a good team, but they don’t really have an elite top ten player on any line. So, how do they make it work then?
[Reply]
Ravens Reply:
May 24th, 2011 at 7:51 pm
@PP Anybody?, We kicked Boston’s butt the last two years,,thier division is weaker and they don’t travel nearly as much as the Kings
Ravens Reply:
May 24th, 2011 at 7:59 pm
@PP Anybody?, assuming they aren’t all in the hospital when the WCF are over, I think we should see Van handle Bos very well.
Bkrs-Bud Reply:
May 25th, 2011 at 12:15 am
@PP Anybody?, Best Goalie in the league this season solid defense and 4 not great but solid lines,I do not think they would have made it out of round one in the west.and if they do win the cup it will be a huge upset.
Doorek Reply:
May 25th, 2011 at 10:33 am
@PP Anybody?, They play a completly diff style of hockey. They slow tthe game down and play solid defense VS the kings who play a wide open / very offensive game.
PP Anybody? Reply:
May 25th, 2011 at 12:51 pm
You guys all kind of prove my point, which is personnel wise we stack up well against Boston. Which leads me to my next point, which is that if we played a more similar style to them, we could still keep our defensive numbers down, but increase our offensive ones. It’s do-able with what we already have in place. And Bkrs-Bud, I would take Quick over Thomas anyday.
jet Reply:
May 24th, 2011 at 3:43 pm
@Kevin, What would you suggest SL do? Please do not say trade Richardson for Ovi.
[Reply]
408KingsFan Reply:
May 24th, 2011 at 5:20 pm
@Kevin, Smyth was one of the only reasons we took the Sharks to a game six.
[Reply]
How did the news Rich delivered regarding the Kings signing two dynamic prospects, turn into a TM and DL bashing festival?
[Reply]
Ravens Reply:
May 24th, 2011 at 6:49 pm
@408KingsFan, I know, it’s uncanny!…..refere to my reply just above your post
[Reply]
Bkrs-Bud Reply:
May 25th, 2011 at 12:08 am
@408KingsFan, Amazing isn’t it
[Reply]
Testing
[Reply]
We have no balance of youth and veteran leadership. We also have no depth.
Yay for having good prospects but if were going to make it past the first round we need dedicated veterans and more depth.
Lets go sign a few more pluggers with talent and go deep.
[Reply]
fsd1 Reply:
May 25th, 2011 at 10:54 am
@Doorek, and just who do you suggest we go get?
[Reply]
You know Boyle evidently hired a figure skating coach no less last summer that completely broke down his stride and rebuilt it. It has done wonders to his game.
I say we hire that same figure skating coach for some of the boys on the team, ahem Greene. If you make it past a certain point with the coach you will no longer be required to wear the spandex tights!!!
[Reply]
I know we all are guilty on picking on people like Moulson, Percell, and so on… Now Penner, Poni, Sims, and stoll we all have pick on this season.
What I realize since Jan and was pick on for not being a TM fan, is that all these players all have talant and when I see guys the Kings develop Like Moul and Per and play the way they do on for other teams, you have to wounder how good can Brown be or Kopi and Will if we had a 2 way coach that knows that the red line is not part of the off-side anymore…
Purcell just scored 5th goal in playoffs and his 12 asissits to go with it????
[Reply]
Gmo Reply:
May 25th, 2011 at 7:04 pm
@Sammuch,
6th now. Wow
TM needs to go. Yes im not a TM supporter Never have and never will be Ur right we need a 2way coach we need someone younger with a new and fresh way of thinking.
GKG
[Reply]
MustDigCash Reply:
May 25th, 2011 at 8:56 pm
@Sammuch,
Purcell is BETTER than anyone forward the Kings have!!! Ouch! The guy is a machine. I wish we had him back.
[Reply]