Following yesterday’s poll results — Brayden Schenn pulled ahead, and Thomas Hickey led throughout — it seemed possibly pertinent to discuss roster dynamics a bit. I saw more than a couple comments imploring the Kings to keep both Schenn and Andrei Loktionov and/or both Hickey and Jake Muzzin. For a handful of reasons, most likely that’s just not plausible this season.
Terry Murray indicated today that the Kings might start the season with 14 forwards and seven defensemen, meaning two spare forwards and one spare defenseman. Were it simply a matter of identifying the 14 most talented forwards, I don’t think there’s much question that both Loktionov and Schenn would make it. But, almost always, roster dynamics are more complicated than that.
While there is certainly some flexibility, it’s almost standard for teams to carry at least two players (one forward, one defenseman), and perhaps three, who are part-time guys, who can be plugged into the lineup when needed but who, otherwise, regularly sit and watch. It’s a very tough job, both mentally and physically, to stay sharp when playing once a week, at most. And that’s why, under almost no circumstance, would a young player be exposed to that situation.
In saying that both Loktionov and Schenn should make the roster, you’re saying one of four things. One, that one of them should be a 13th forward, just for the sake of being on the roster. Two, that one should be moved to wing and play out of position. Or three, that one of the other veteran centers should be traded, meaning that two of the Kings’ four centers would be rookies, each with one game of NHL experience. If I’m a coach, none of those sound good to me. Same goes on defense. Keeping both Hickey and Muzzin would mean either pairing two rookies with zero experience or making one of them a regular healthy scratch.
I’m fairly confident in saying that any coach would tell you that a young player is better off playing than sitting, even if it means playing at a lower level. This is why players such as Trevor Lewis and Peter Harrold have an edge, because they’re older and more experienced and aren’t going to have their development stunted by regularly being healthy scratches, and they’re mature enough to handle the part-time role.
Would it be possible for a center to switch to wing? Yes, no question, but both Loktionov and Schenn appear to have bright futures at center, and the wisdom of putting them in potentially uncomfortable roles, at an important time in their development, is questionable. To test my instincts on this, I asked Terry Murray if Loktionov’s skills were specifically suited to center, and if that would preclude a move to wing…
MURRAY: “He’s going to be a really good center iceman. He’s a talented guy. Just some of the plays that he was making in the game the other night, they happen as soon as he gets the puck. It’s not getting it, then pivoting, looking and making it. It’s `right now.’ That’s special. The good players do that. They know their options before they receive the puck. That’s why he scores the goal the goal that he scored. It’s that quick play. It’s give-and-go. He’s on the mov. His timing is really good. He’s going to be a very good player.”
Thanks Rich. People get excited about what they want to see. But there is one thing you can say about the building of this team. D E L I B E R A T E. If a guy is 19 and might not make the team this year, no big deal. We have to remember that Stoll, Williams and others may be playing their last year in a King’s uniform. Next year there will be more open slots.
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Nice of you to spell it out for everyone Rich.I see no flaws in your reasoning, and it’s nice to know that the next batch of players is already making decisions hard for the Kings coaching staff.
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Like the sound of that.Don’t have to many bad options at least.
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Thanks, Rich this was a good read as usual. I agree and had Harold almost an automatic in the reserve role. I do have to say while Lewis may be older he has never had to except the reserve role of an extended period and his development isn’t done in my opinion. I have been lobbying for the Kings to keep Schenn & Clifford up just up to the limit to keep them rookies 9 games, but I wasn’t sure if Lewis and/or others would be exposed to waivers or not if we called them from the AHL. With Parse as our 2nd LW just be safe and give him an extra week to get to full strength. It maybe a mistake to trust a young guy afraid of lose his slot in the lineup choose when he comes back.
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As usual, really well delineated Rich. I’ve thought about it myself. It’s obvious by instinct that they can’t keep all of the four. One forward and one dman max. Sounds like unless something happens over the next few games to create a bigger gap between TH and JM and also the two centermen, that it’s gonna be a decision based on where they are at the moment in their development.
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number 6 Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 7:50 pm
@number 6,
What I meant to say is: it will be based on much more than simply where they are at currently in their development.
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PRMan Reply:
October 1st, 2010 at 5:27 am
@number 6, Exactly. For instance, the Kings had Randy Jones playing minutes last season because they desperately needed a 2nd PP QB. Muzzin is not that guy, but Hickey is. So even if Muzzin is slightly outplaying Hickey in some areas, he’s not in the most important area to fill.
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Very good points Rich…thanks for the reality check.
It is probably also true that regardless of who is allowed to start the season here, there is a decent chance that the others will have an opportunity sooner or later some time over the course of the season due to injury or coach’s decision.
It will be nice to know they are there, waiting in the wings–er, sidelines.
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I wonder about the Parse injury…
Could that be a difference maker?
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Thanks Rich, for being the voice of reason. I do not get to see the practices or pre-season games, so my opinions are based solely on experience. I do not see the Kings keeping two rookie d-men, two rookie centers, or dumping Stoll, the only good face off man. I believe Schenn will get a nine game look, Hickey will get a look until Greene comes back, and EE will get some ice time so that he can be shopped. I think there is a competition between Harry and 44DD for #6 d. If Harry gets it, look for them to shop 44DD, maybe with EE. Just IMO!
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8ball Reply:
October 1st, 2010 at 6:10 pm
@edwood2,
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It must be tempting for the Kings to keep Clifford knowing that if he goes back to Juniors he won’t be available (except in an emergency call-up) should Clune go down, as usual, with injury.
Without one of those two guys on board it puts a lot of pressure on Westgarth to handle the rough stuff alone. The problem with keeping Clifford is that moves Richardson more into the fourth line center role negating the idea of keeping Schenn or Loktionov.
I suspect the Kings will send Loktionov down to Manchester knowing they can bring him back at any time. Schenn is really on the bubble. If they keep him in L.A. then Clifford has to go down or Richardson gets benched until somebody (JW)? gets injured.
The Kings have a lot of depth if they keep Schenn and Clifford. Depth could be an issue if they send them back to Juniors as Lewis, though a good skater, brings little else to the table. Clune is injury prone and other than Loktionov probably no other forward at Manchester will be ready for the big club this season.
This is going to be a tough call. That’s one of the reasons DL makes the big bucks.
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Why has no one commented on how poorly Drewiske is playing? I’ve been impressed with Muzzin (even a bit more than Hickey). Is Drewiske in the line-up without any competition. I think there is two potential openings up for grabs.
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Jay Wells Fan Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 10:37 pm
@Longtime Kings fan, This is exactly what I was thinking. I thought that Drewiske was the worst player on the ice for the Kings against the Quacks. He brings very little to the table. I think Muzzin>Hickey right now, but they are both greater that Davis.
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Crown Royal Reply:
October 1st, 2010 at 5:21 am
@Jay Wells Fan,
Sadly, I must agree with you and Longtime Kings on this issue. I’ve been a Drewiske fan since I first saw him playing high school hockey in Wisconsin but he is not playing as well now as he was two seasons ago when called up to the big club. It wasn’t just against the Quacks. He was not good against the Coyotes either.
It’s difficult to believe the Kings will pair two rookies together (Hickey-Muzzin) but both have out played Drewiske so far this year.
When Greene comes back one of the two rookies seems the better fit paired with him as the fifth or sixth D-man.
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Lokti is going to be a future 35 goal center. I know it. I hope we let him prove it.
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DougS Reply:
October 1st, 2010 at 3:45 am
@Michael_DD8,
I agree. And he’d be much farther along in proving it if it hadn’t been for that damned shoulder injury.
I’m very encouraged that he’s charging hard for a roster spot right now. If he gets sent back down, I don’t he’ll be in Manchester for too long.
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I was thinking the same thing about Drewiske actually. A few give aways in the D zone last game, one directly led to a goal. Hickey looked good, so did Muzzin. Harrold we know what he can do. So do you keep Hickey and make him the puck mover while Drewiske/Harrold becomes the stay at home guy or do you make Muzzin the stay at home guy with Drewiske/Harrold as the puck movers? I’d love to keep Hickey, he’s gonna be great but I’m taking Muzzin until Greene comes back. THEN bring Hickey back to the club…I can’t trust Drewiske as the stay at home dude, scares me right now.
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Here’s the solution!
Lokti or Schenn should center the 2nd line and Stoll should move to wing. Stoll has no creativity, but he is fast, a good forechecker, not afraid of the boards and has a good shot. I think he’d be a good winger and he could step in and take as many face offs as necessary like Marleau does in San Jose.
That solves several problems since it allows the kids to develop and play where they should be and it takes Stoll away from a position that demands creativity that he doesn’t have.
Why isn’t Murray or anyone else thinking the same thing?
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KC23 Reply:
October 1st, 2010 at 1:25 am
@UpperV, Stoll’s biggest asset is faceoffs … so putting him to wing might not be optimal. I’m just saying
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UpperV Reply:
October 1st, 2010 at 2:20 am
@KC23,
That is his best asset as a center, but why couldn’t he take the draws if he plays on the wing?
As I wrote above, “I think he’d be a good winger and he could step in and take as many face offs as necessary like Marleau does in San Jose.”
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Crown Royal Reply:
October 1st, 2010 at 5:49 am
@UpperV,
I’ve had the same thought about using Stoll on the wing. As you may recall he played there briefly last year. He’s neither a natural center or winger but is valuable as a right-handed faceoff man.
Using him on the wing probably allows the Kings to get the more talented players like Loktionov in the lineup. Tm is a hockey traditionalist so there may be something about Stoll on the wing that bothers him?
Regarding Schenn, Loktionov and Lewis. Its gonna be tough to see Schenn and Loktionov not be with the club. Both being young, I can understand why you would want them to get more playing time and develop but this is a tough call for TM and DL. Loktionov deserves a shot to stick, we can call up Schenn when someone isn’t producing and put the kid to work. Lewis will have to skate his a$$ off and prove he belongs. I do love that we have this problem, before we couldn’t find enough players to make an impact, now we have several.
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SRC Reply:
October 1st, 2010 at 3:52 am
@FM3,
Schenn plays junior or NHL. Not eligible for AHL because of age. Loki can move up or down. So….it will be Schenn who sticks and Loki to Manchester.
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JohnW Reply:
October 1st, 2010 at 4:18 am
@FM3, I don’t think Schenn can be called up from Junior on anything but an emergency basis.
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It cannot be taken for granted how wonderful this “tough call” is. Our organizational depth excites me more than it ever has. Kings management/coaches will make the call as their professional eyes see fit. And as we are all Kings “fan”atics, we will by nature support any decision that is made…After all, no matter where these kids play, at the time being, they are all Kings.
Vegas baby!!! Let the season begin.
Cheers!
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i think it is going to come down to dollars & cents. The longer DL can keep the kids in the minors or juniors the less these young players can demand at the next contract negotiations. It also gives DL time to hopefully get the best bang for the buck from Zeus & Williams.
However, I personally think we need to roster 2 rookies this season because next year when Zeus, Williams, & Poni come off the books, + the 2 holes we currently have, there is no way DL will play a team with 5 rookies next year (even if the rookies can hang)!
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I really liked what I saw from both Schenn and Lokti at the Ducks game, training camp, etc. I also thought that Hickey and Muzzin held their own and were impressive. Seriously, you would have never known that they were up against Getzlof, Perry, Ryan, Lubo, Selanie…those are some respectable players (at least in skill). They all were invisible against the Kings the other night, which brings me to my first point.
The whole team was amazing too! I had the luxury of attending alot of the training sessions, and I was so happy to see that training play out in the game. The team was breaking out of the d-zone better. Their passing through the neutral zone was WAY better than last year. Their offensive zone passing around the net was something we generally only saw on the power play, but they managed to do it alot during 5 on 5. When they lost the puck, they were all back in the defensive zone doing what has been drilled into them for the past two years. Terry Murray has paced their training perfectly and now the focus is offense. Which brings me to my next point.
Dean and Terry have done such a great job bringing this team along. I respect them for their patience and vision and also for convincing these players to buy into the culture that they are trying to create. Considering the raw talent of Kopi, JJ, Brown (to name just a few)…they all had to sacrifice the glory of what they could have been recognized for immediately, and yet they trusted the vision of the franchise, and it wasn’t without pressure and critizism. “Why isn’t Kopi scoring more?” “What happened to Brownie?” “Where did JMFJ go?” They all had to give up the instant gratification of dazzling the crowd to get better and become the foundation of this team, and now it is going to pay off. Now they all have complete skills and can let their raw talents shine. So I guess my last point is this….
Schenn, Lokti, Hickey, Muzzin and all of the other prospects got a taste of this. If they get sent down to play some more and get better, I think, after being around the organization, they will realize that just being in the NHL is a target that is too low. They could actually become elite players on a team that will be a contender for many years to come and if Dean picked these prospects the way he picked our current players, (which I’m sure he did) they will have the character to rise to the challenge and win more than one Stanley Cup.
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jet Reply:
October 1st, 2010 at 9:20 am
@kings4queens, very well said. I would only like to see Lombardi start refer to our system as “the King’s way” or “that’s how our organization does things”. Four years ago it was necessary to say ” baseball does this or the Wings training program is great or the Yankees draft like this”, to sell top management and the disjointed fan base. We are past that stage and all of the team leaders are in Phase B. The Brown’s, Kopi’s, DDs and JJs will be the ones to determine who we really are, but who ever that turns out to be, it will be the Kings and no longer some amalgam of the Wings, Yankees and Cowboys. DL has done an incredible job to date, but it is time for him to recognize we are at the next stage. The stage, where the boys will determine who exactly we are and other organizations (like Florida) will say we are doing it the Kings way.
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What waste to send Loki to the minors. This Kid is more them ready to go… Same with Bern. It’s better to see how these rookies do in the 1st 5 games NHL then send them down. Many teams have won the cup with 3 rookies on the team. I think it will keep the veterans in line in playing lazy hockey. The Kings have a history doing that. So presure on Vets or get traded.
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fsd1 Reply:
October 1st, 2010 at 8:19 am
@Sammuch, Quite an insult to all Kings players past, present and future to call them lazy players, Shame on you!
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Guys, Whiskey had a couple of plays that didn’t go his way last game (happens to everyone). Lets not be so quick to right him off, just because we’re excited with a few rookies. If Hickey and Muzzin are the best option, then I hope the Kings find a way to temporarily pair them with some veterans, but It wouldn’t surprise me to see Whiskey lock down a roster spot in the next 2 games.
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rontheking Reply:
October 1st, 2010 at 8:53 am
@Dominick,
I agree. DD2 made a couple of boneheaded plays but the rest of the time he was solid.
And last year before he suffered the injury he was playing very well. He just needs to work on being a little–okay, a lot–smarter and safer in his own end on the breakout.
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rontheking Reply:
October 1st, 2010 at 8:54 am
@rontheking,
Also, when is he going to start hitting some people? He’s got the big body. What’s stopping him?
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Lokti has payed his dues in the AHL. Kid has creativity that LA needs. Schenn can go back and redeem Canada’s silver last year at the WJCs. Tough call, but that is my .02
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You spell it out, and people still don’t read it, or don’t understand a few important factors in this decision.
Let’s start here, and sorry if I am sounding condesending, but I get impatient with people who post a comment and have absolutely no idea what they are talking about.
SCHENN is 19 and he has only played 3 years in the WHL or CHL. Schenn doesn’t have 3 options, he has 2 options. Schenn can’t play in the AHL, and I’ll say it again, Schenn can’t play in the AHL. He does not meet the criteria, that he would need to become eligible to play in the AHL. The criteria for Schenn is either he’s 20 years old, which is the minimum age a player can play in the AHL, or he has played 4 years in the CHL.
Since he is 19, and has only played 3 years in the CHL he is not eligible to be sent to the AHL after his 8 games in the NHL. Yes, he only has 8 games of eligibility, he used one game last year in his emergency call up, so he has 8 games left after the 8th game he either stays with the Kings, or is sent back to Brandon.
I hope this clears up the question about the options the Kings have in regard to Schenn this season.
Moving on, since Schenn would most likely be a 4th line center, he would not be receiving the quality minutes he would need to grow, and develop, and he is used to playing on a 1st line, and a lot of minutes, in addition to scoring points, either goals or assists with Brandon.
It only makes sense to keep Schenn for his 8 games and then send him back to Brandon, so he has another season to get bigger and also work on some of the Kings will be asking him to improve on, if he wants to make the Kings roster next season.
Another thing you need to really think about is, if the Kings did keep Schenn and then he got injured after the 8th game, he would have no place to go, if he needed to re-hab, and then get a few games in, to get himself back into game shape. So, knowing he has had a few knee strains during the past year, it would be foolish to cripple his development, if they can’t get him quality time, and if he were to struggle, then as a young player his confidence could be compromised.
This is why Schenn will go back to Brandon for one more season.
Loktionov is the better scenerio, since he can start in Manchester or Los Angeles, and if he were really playing well, then he could get a call-up to play with the Kings in the NHL. The opposite of this, also is if Loktionov was struggling after starting the season with the Kings, then they could send him back to Manchester to get him some more development and minutes. In addtion, if he was injured, he could rehab, and then get some conditioning in the AHL to get him back up to speed.
I hope this clears up the status/options the Kings have with Schenn and Loktionov. Schenn is not a 1st or 2nd line center yet, and anyone who thinks just because he scored well in the WHL, this will transfer over to NHL is not being realistic. It’s not common, for high round draft picks to contribute instantly when they start playing in the NHL. Now there have been a few exceptions Crosby and Ovechkin, Malkin and Kovalchuk, but this is not usually going to happen for most high draft picks in their first year.
Schenn is a 4th line center, barely a 3rd line player now, but DL doesn’t usually rush the youngsters to the NHL, he has learned from past mistakes.
Muzzin is a better defensive player than Hickey. Muzzin is bigger, and much more physical at this point. Hickey is a great puck moving defenseman, but he is not a big physical punishing defender like Muzzin. Hickey still looks like he’s hesitant to make a quick decision, which usually gives the opposition to eliminate many of his options. He can rush the puck up the ice well, he can quarterback a powerplay, but if you wanted to replace Greene, Muzzin is the better of these 2 players. Muzzin is even as good if not better than Drewiskie.
Again they have more options available with Hickey/Muzzin even Drewiskie, but I think Hickey is going to be a captain in Manchester this year.
Kyle Clifford is a better hockey player than Clune. I think Clifford will have no trouble playing on a 4th line energy role, or a 3rd line shutdown line, and he has more offensive upside than Clune. I give the advantage to Clifford, which also gives a bit of a break to Westgarth if Clifford can take care of his business, which he has been more than comfortable with so far.
Lastly, Hickey and Muzzin played a few games last year in Manchester as a pairing, even on powerplay during the Calder Cup semi-finals against Hershey. Muzzin had a few nice goals, which were off passes from Hickey.
Just my .02 worth.
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Dominick Reply:
October 1st, 2010 at 3:33 pm
@Neil Ellis Shafton,
You did seem a bit miffed to start, but tempered out as you began to make your points. I agree with all your points, and think that the choices are pretty clear, so far.
Barring any injuries or last minute heroics, I see things, pretty much, playing out as you’ve described it.
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From the things DL has said in the past, I believe it will be Hickey who sticks on the blue line because the Kings want to create more of an up-tempo style and having another guy on the back end who can bring up the puck is going to be critical in more offensive zone play and hopefully improving even-strength scoring. Just my opinion…
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Dan H. Reply:
October 1st, 2010 at 11:50 am
@YES on 19,
You were probably posting this just as Rich was posting that Hickey was sent down. lol
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I’ve been a Kings/hockey fan since the early 70s. I know a lot of the history, the players, the folklore. I play a little pick-up, I know all the rules, etc. What I DON’T KNOW is all of the subtlities that experienced coaches know. What little things a player is doing or not doing, etc. All of us here are posting our ideas on who should make the team, which position to play, etc. and I think that is GREAT! But let’s not forget that guys like Murray have decades of experience on and off of the ice. We need to just sit back at let these guys do what they think is best for the team. I am really excited that so many people are as passionate as me when it comes to hockey and especially when it comes to OUR Kings. It’s a great thing to see how far our team has come in the past few years. I think we are all super excited to see what our team is capable of doing. Whoever makes the team will deserve it and the ones who don’t are an injury away from being called up. They should take solace that they are that close to joining a very strong team. Go down to MCH and tear it up. Win a Calder Cup. GO KINGS GO!!!!
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Great words Neil. I didn’t know those details. But I am going to have to cheer for my home town boy Lewis. He has patiently waited and gone through the “Kings” development plan. Most people don’t understand there is a method to getting a player to the NHL. The season is long and this a man’s game. Now Schenn and Loktionov are 19 and 20 respectively, young unless you are a rare superstar like the ones you noted. Three years older at this age is a huge consideration for a coach. If you look at the stats from the juniors and AHL, Lewis has progressed nicely, maybe a bit slower than we would have liked and that shoulder injury did not help. Also when talking about the Canadian junior leagues, OHL is a little bit higher caliber than the WHL, so that must be consider. I am not in saying in anyway Schenn’s numbers in the WHL are to snivel at. But I just think is not ready to make jump from WHL to the NHL no matter how he appears in a few pre season games. As far as Loktionov goes, he closer than Schenn to make the team. He put up good numbers in the OHL and matched those with good AHL stats. But you better be real good at 5’ 10 180lbs, that is on the low side and when you’re talking durability in a man’s game at 19 or 20 you either need to be superstar or big.
So my pick would be Lewis as my 4th line center and with versatility as a LW, he could fill roles there as needed. I have known Trevor since he was a kid. He listens well, is a thinking player, quiet but strong. Last year I chatting with his father after he was sent down, he was very nevous about making a mistake and being sent down. He said he just need to feel a bit more comfortable and not be so worried about making mistakes. I think if he gets several NHL games in a row under his belt, you will see why he was drafted #17 overall. You can see his maturity with how after a several month out with an injury, he played exceptional (9 points in 16 games) in the AHL play-offs.
Anyway you look at it, the Kings have just about all the pieces in place to make a serious run at the cup.
Puckbrew
Salt Lake City
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