Since rumors are bound to be thrown around soon — not that they ever really end — it might be instructive to at least look at what the Kings are facing, salary-wise, entering next season. Below, I put together a reasonable look at the Kings’ 2010-11 lineup (just a semi-educated guess, particularly in terms of prospects), with their salary-cap hits for next season…
Smyth ($6.25 million)-Kopitar ($6.8 million)-Williams ($3.5 million)
(TBD)-Stoll ($3.6 million)-Brown ($3.175 million)
Richardson (?)-Handzus ($4 million)-Simmonds ($821,666)
Clifford ($900,000)-Cliche ($900,000)-Westgarth ($525,000)
Clune ($750,000 estimate)-Parse ($900,000)
Doughty ($3.475 million)-Scuderi ($3.4 million)
Johnson ($1.425 million)-Greene ($2.95 million)
Drewiske ($616,667)-(TBD)
Harrold ($583,333)
Quick ($1.8 million)
Bernier ($843,333)
Those 20 players, plus the final year of Alyn McCauley’s buyout ($666,667), total approximately $47.8 million. This season’s salary cap was $56.8 million, and it’s reasonable to assume it will hold, unless the players decide to bump it up $2 million. So that would leave the Kings $9 million to fill three spots (that includes Richardson, who made $600,000 last season but should get a sizable raise), assuming they’re willing to go to the cap ceiling (which would also mean no wiggle room for a trade-deadline addition).
That’s not to discourage anyone from debating scenarios, but it’s a reminder that if you’re thinking of adding $10 million to the payroll, you also have to determine which current salaries you want to dump…
In terms of what you’re saying about the team’s Cap Space Rich, I’d much rather see the Kings sign a decent 25 goal scorer with two-way capabilities rather than spend a boatload on Kovalchuk or Marleau.
With Chicago in such Cap distress, is it far-fetched to look at trading for a guy like Sharp/Versteeg/Brouwer?
Of course trades are impossible to predict, but that’s the type of option I would think is more viable than the inflated free-agent market.
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54FIGHTING Reply:
June 10th, 2010 at 3:32 pm
@Eric C.,
Didn’t the Kiungs just have a 25 goal scorer in Frolov? He was also a good two way player. If your thinking is the same as the Kings then why not just re-sign him?
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54FIGHTING Reply:
June 10th, 2010 at 3:32 pm
@54FIGHTING,
Did I really just write Kiungs?
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USHA#17 Reply:
June 10th, 2010 at 4:08 pm
@54FIGHTING,
Every Fro has his day and Fro may have had his. Perhaps he’s asking for too much and the Kings have a load of wings in the system.
Fro: 19 goals last season (and dropping), below league average in shot percentage and at age 27 (statistically) his play is as good as it going to get.
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USHA#17 Reply:
June 10th, 2010 at 4:10 pm
@54FIGHTING,
@54FIGHTING,
Every Fro has his day and Fro may have had his. Perhaps he’s asking for too much and the Kings have a load of wings in the system.
Fro: 19 goals last season (and dropping), below league average in shot percentage and at age 27 (statistically) his play is as good as it going to get.
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Eric C. Reply:
June 10th, 2010 at 4:23 pm
@54FIGHTING, Frolov is too much of an underachiever to commit the $5 million+ he is likely to demand. If we’re trying to draw comparisons, Sharp is an affordable price, he’s had 4 consecutive 20 goal seasons (with increasing point totals) and now he has a cup on his resume. We could trade away assets that are no longer benefiting the team and obtain someone who can fill a void in Sharp.
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54FIGHTING Reply:
June 11th, 2010 at 7:05 pm
@Eric C.,
My point was to show that we just had a 25 goal scorer with 2 way ability in Frolov. If he was an underachiever then what are you saying we need to get better? A 25 goal scorer / 2 way guy who’s an overachiever or just average? How does that make us better?
Substituting Frolov for Sharp (who do we trade to get him) doesn’t change the team much. In the end did we just change Frolov’s 19 goals and defense for Sharps 20 goals and defense or are we looking at bring both in?
Rumors are that we are out of the running for that 10 mil anyway so moving on….I like the line-up Rich but put Ritchie up with Stoll & Brown (for now unless we end up signing a certain San Jose winger) and put Schenn somewhere on that list with his potential cap hit should he make the team
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tantrum4 Reply:
June 11th, 2010 at 10:11 am
@Jester’s Dead,
Rumours? From Eklund? I guess you aren’t aware that everything he writes is totally worng. I took that to mean that we are 100% in the running…
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With Schenn very likely to make it, I smell a trade rather than a high-profile UFA signing.
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We could always trade some of the “numbers” along with pick/prospects to aquire something better.
Williams and Stoll come to mind.
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Buster Reply:
June 11th, 2010 at 1:15 am
@Ersberg,
I have a feeling we might have one less goalie as well via trade. Unfortunately, it could be Ersberg going. I like what he has to offer, but where will he fit in the system next season? Martin Jones could very well be with Zatkoff in Manchester, and unless we carry three goalies on either of those two rosters, Ersberg could be the odd man out. Either that or he’s with Ontario to be called up due to an emergency situation.
I hope I’m wrong on the situation because I like him, but I feel that he’ll have fewer splinters in his backside if he’s with another team. Either way, I’ll wish him luck in whatever direction is chosen for him, whether it’s with the Kings or not.
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Ersberg Reply:
June 11th, 2010 at 9:00 am
@Buster, I have a tendency to believe he’ll be in Manchester with either one of the goalies you mentioned. Personally, I feel it’ll be Jones.
I’m of the mind that Jones will be an NHL starter within the next 1-2 years. I’m not so certain about Zatkoff, though.
If Ersberg gets dealt, good luck to him.
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uknojata Reply:
June 11th, 2010 at 1:18 am
@Ersberg, I like the way you think, but finding a taker for Williams could be a problem and I’m not sure I’m ready to give up on him yet.
However, I think moving Stoll is a serious possibility. It’s a pipe dream, but Stoll, Moller and a first for Spezza would work for me. Taking on his $7 mil, but losing Stoll’s $3.6 mil and Moller’s $875,000 would only leave us spending $2.525 mil and make us a hell-of-alot better. Plus leaves us plenty of room to add a vet d-man that can move the puck.
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Ersberg Reply:
June 11th, 2010 at 9:08 am
@uknojata, I just don’t see how much he can provide with his annual season-ending injuries. If we use Zus as an example, Williams should/would have another off-season this coming season. If Williams would have stayed healthy last season, then I’d fully expect him to have another breakout season this coming year.
I think we have far too many candidates in our system that can step up into NHL rolls that could fill the spot and/or he we could bury him in the AHL.
I’d do that deal, too, but I think Murray would want a lot more than your proposed deal.
It would probably take something in the neighborhood of Johnson/Brown+Stoll+Moller+1st(2010)+2nd(2010) or 1st(2010)+1st(2011) for Spezza+Lee/O’Brien.
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GoKings09 Reply:
June 11th, 2010 at 12:52 pm
@Ersberg,
Comparing him to Zeus and saying after an injury you have one off year then you are back to normal is generalizing just a bit. Recovering from ligament damage like an ACL surgery and from a broken bone are completely different things. Broken bones will recover faster because once its healed you are 100% while ligaments and such takes longer because you have to build that strength back up and trust in it to play with confidence knowing it’s not going to give out.
Williams rushed back from his injury much sooner than anyone thought he could be back which is part of why he struggled. I really don’t see him in the AHL next year
maraudking5 Reply:
June 11th, 2010 at 9:11 am
@uknojata,
That’s a lot to give up for 1 guy, not to mention his production is quite inconsistent. He’s a good player, but the knock on him is that he is NOT a gamer. He hides when the pressure is on ( This according to my HNIC radio) I don’t know how fiscally responsible having almost $20 Mil locked up on 3 players (Kopitar, Smyth, add Spezza’s 7 Mil)
Remember we still need to lock up Doughty, Bernier, ect
[Reply]
Ersberg Reply:
June 11th, 2010 at 1:58 pm
@GoKings09, My point was to generalize. No, Williams has a very similar injury history that of Zues, making the comparison rather valid.
I admire fans for protecting the decisions we’ve made, but this one was the riskiest we’ve had in years.
I’d be willing to bet Williams is not a full-time player for LA come next off-season.
GoKings09 Reply:
June 11th, 2010 at 4:02 pm
@Ersberg,
Injuries are different for each individual player. Zeus and Williams both had to have ACL surgery. Zeus had his in the 2006-2007 season and the next season had an off-year in recovering before playing well again the past 2 seasons now. Williams had his surgery in the 2007-2008 season so by your logic his bad year would be 2008-2009 and then by now he would be back to normal.
Since then Williams hurt his Achilles, had a broken hand from a shot and broken leg while with the Kings. My point is that recovering from broken bones is much different than recovering from knee surgery and shouldn’t take as long. In addition Williams regularly comes back early from injuries because he works hard in therapy to improve.
I don’t know what besides the knee surgeries makes their injury history similar.
The trade was a bit risky, but would you really want to undo it now? Williams played basically a quarter of the season less than O’sullivan and had almost the same numbers with a better +/- and many of his games were when he was still not 100% recovered from the broken leg.
If you are saying you think Williams is injury prone and will get hurt again then ok, he has had a history of injuries although many of them have been broken bones that are more freak injuries like getting hit in the hand with a slapshot by a teammate. Comparing him to Zeus coming of ACL surgery just doesn’t make sense to me
Ersberg Reply:
June 11th, 2010 at 4:53 pm
@GoKings09, I agree those injuries are different, but he’ll still have a hard time keeping up with condiditing because of said injury. He will not be 100% come October. No way. He/they(LA staff) will claim he is, but he won’t be. Sure, it will heal, but this coming season will be a shadow of seasons past.
The trade was very risky. Would I undo the deal now? No, because POS and/or the 2nd rounds wouldn’t be on our 1st line. That’s not the question to ask, though. The real question is, can we do better and should we before the season starts? The answer is yes, we should. We can attempt to trade him. If that fails, minors it is.
At this stage of the development, we can attract better deals or UFA’s. This, like any other team sport, is a performance-based industry. Up to this point in time, there’s really nothing to show for why he should remain a top-tier player on this team. What has he done, other than be a risk or be injured? His game isn’t all that great. If you bring up intagibles, I’d disagree, because then we’re talking about guys like Stoll, Zus, and Simmonds. He’d be a 3rd liner on most playoff teams, if that at all.
54FIGHTING Reply:
June 11th, 2010 at 7:14 pm
@uknojata,
If you’re Ottawa why would you do this (Stoll Moller and a 1st)? Sounds to me as though someone has been ready too much HF.
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54FIGHTING Reply:
June 11th, 2010 at 7:21 pm
@54FIGHTING,
I did it again. Ready = reading. You don’t give up your 1st line center and best young player for a 2nd/3rd line center, a good prospect who can’t crack his own teams lineup and a 1st.
Since he is not on your list of salaries, does that mean that Frolov is gone? Bummer!
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DougS Reply:
June 10th, 2010 at 3:20 pm
@poe,
I suspect all that means is that Frolov is not currently under contract for next season. Therefore, it’s impossible to say for sure what he would cost the Kings.
My attitude is, that until Fro actually signs with someone else, there is a chance that he’ll be with the Kings next year. I think Lombardi wants him back. He just wants Fro back at the right price.
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The salary cap is depressing.
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jet Reply:
June 10th, 2010 at 3:10 pm
@Matt R, Agreed, I know Kopi is woth it, but it is still hard to look up and see a 6.8M number and the limitations that it brings.
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luc20rules Reply:
June 10th, 2010 at 5:35 pm
@jet, Yes, Kopi is worth it. What concerns me more is the $6.25 mil/yr of Smyth that we should feel fortunate if he plays 60+ games and has anything left at his age when the playoffs begin. I think he plays hard and has a monster heart, but how much can the old body give? Yes, I know the Kings only pay 80% or so of Smyth’s cap hit, but that 20% savings doesn’t help the team win. I love Smyth’s style of play and intensity, but the calculator and stats don’t lie. Unless there is some unforseen agreement that has him playing with us beyond his contract for about 2 to 3 mil/yr that 6.25mil/yr cap hit REALLY HURTS.
Off the subject I reread the DL interview on Schenn and have to think that the incentives that count against the cap are for 2 line #s like 20+ goals, 50+ points, just because of the way DL gave Schenn props for saying he reworked his contract so it would not affect his ability to make the team.
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Datacloud Reply:
June 10th, 2010 at 9:38 pm
@luc20rules,
I agree that Smyth’s contract is hard to look at, but we dumped three (two) years of Preissing at 3 in that deal. My concern is that he faded down the stretch, and was not much of a factor in the playoff series. We either need Williams healthy and that line clicking all season, or a better option on Kopi’s other wing. He’s fully capable of scoring 100 points with healthy, consistent wingers, and thus a steal at 6.8
HockeyMatt Reply:
June 11th, 2010 at 7:14 am
@luc20rules,
The good news is, I believe Smyth only has 1 year left on this contract. We have the opportunity to go after a quality sniper this off-season. We could afford to add a player in the 7-8 million range, knowing that the cap is going up and Smyth’s contract will be off the books at season’s end.
54FIGHTING Reply:
June 11th, 2010 at 7:24 pm
@luc20rules,
About Schenn. I actually think those things aren’t even in his contract at all.
54FIGHTING Reply:
June 12th, 2010 at 9:26 am
@luc20rules,
After looking at the CBA those things that you mentioned: 20 goals, 35 assists, ice time and so forth are all individual ‘A’ bonuses and can be maxed out at $850,000. What does that mean – even if Schenn has these in his contract his total contract would only be $900,000 + $850,000 = 1,750,000 or 1.75mil. Not that bad.
It’s the individual ‘B’ bonuses that the rest of the money comes from and I don’t think Brayden included these into his contract cutting off about 1.4mil from his ELC.
luc20rules Reply:
June 13th, 2010 at 2:29 am
@luc20rules, His cap hit is 3.1 Mil/yr, but his base salary from what I understand is $900,000, which means 2.2 mil/yr is in incentives. DL can go over the team salary cap by total team incentives by I think 4 mil/yr, but if the incentives are reached they count against the following years salary cap. So if it appears that Schenn will not automatically hit his incentives that seems like an acceptable risk.
54FIGHTING Reply:
June 13th, 2010 at 12:48 pm
@luc20rules,
But that isn’t an acceptable risk. Look at Chicago right now.
Look at the Kings with DD – he will most likely hit all of his individual ‘A’ incentive this year: Exibit 5 (1) (b)
(i) must be among the top 4 d-main in ice time (DONE)
(ii) goals (10 minimum) we know he got $100,000 for this
(iii) assists (25 minimum) – done
(iv) points (40 minimum) – done
(v) points per game .49 average – done
(vi) plus/minus – top 3 d-men (he’s #2 on the team) – done
‘B’ bonuses exibit 5 (2) (a)
(i) Top 5 in voting for the Norris – we don’t know what is in DD’s contract but it could be up to 1.75 million.
meaning that DD earned his entire salary this year and will likely hit it all next year too.
2 year ago when DD signed his contract did any of us think he would hit all these bonuses – no. Would we be naive to think the same of Schenn – yes. Therefore I think that Schenn signed a contract without these bonuses even in it.
54FIGHTING Reply:
June 13th, 2010 at 12:55 pm
@luc20rules,
Maybe Schenn didn’t include any bonus money in his contract and only signed for $900,000 – now that would be awesome – but not for him.
This year DD and Quick hit most if not all of their bonuses.
***NON-TOPIC ALERT***
For anyone who might doubt the dedication and high pain threshold of Justin Williams, and hockey players in general, I give you the depressing story of one very sad baseball player, Kendry Morales.
For those who don’t know (and might care), Kendry is the All-Star caliber first baseman for the Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim, who recently fractured his lower left leg in one of the most rediculous fashions imaginable, trying to stop on home plate with a horde of his fellow teammates surging in front of him, keeping him from seeing what he was doing. Instead of celebrating a walk-off grand slam home run in the normal fashion, Kendry fractured his lower leg, in a manner quite similar to the way JW fractured his lower leg. Both athletes left after the application of an air boot, on a stretcher. That’s where the similarities end.
It was announced today that Kendry Morales was gone for the season. Folks, the season has nearly all of five months to play out… Remember how fast JW returned? But JW is a hockey player, and Kendry Morales is a baseball player.
Yes, I understand that there is a difference in the operative procedures each athlete endured… Yet, a baseball first baseman can’t return in five months when a hockey forward returned in 3-3 1/2 months!
Again, I have to bow to the reparative powers of one Justin Williams, his dedication and his incredibly high tolerance of pain.
–BOW–
Now, about acting Monkeys for everybody on a baseball field in such a way to cost your team your services for an entire season…
Useless.
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BakoCAkingsCondorsGuy Reply:
June 10th, 2010 at 3:04 pm
rediculous = ridiculous
(erase, erase, erase)
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BakoCAkingsCondorsGuy Reply:
June 10th, 2010 at 3:06 pm
stop = stomp
(erase, erase, erase YET AGAIN)
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jet Reply:
June 10th, 2010 at 3:12 pm
@BakoCAkingsCondorsGuy, I sure hope JW can get back to whee he was at the begining of the season. He is fun to watch when 100%.
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Ersberg Reply:
June 10th, 2010 at 3:22 pm
@BakoCAkingsCondorsGuy, I’m still waiting to see what we traded for; a player that won the SC with Carolina.
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54FIGHTING Reply:
June 10th, 2010 at 3:35 pm
@BakoCAkingsCondorsGuy,
Baseball = boring
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Michael J Reply:
June 10th, 2010 at 3:40 pm
@BakoCAkingsCondorsGuy, I remember a 37 year old Dave Taylor being crosschecked into the glass by a Vancouver player during 3rd period of game 6 Smythe division finals. Stitch was helped off the ice and taken into the dressing room where he was diagnosed with a broken nose. Being the hockey player that he is, Taylor shoved a little gauze up each nostril and returned to the ice not missing a single shift! I remember commenting with those seated near us that if the same had happened to LA’s top paid baseball player, Darryl Strawberry, they would have been already making the funeral arrangements.
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USCG Reply:
June 10th, 2010 at 4:00 pm
@Michael J, one of the coolest things I saw this post season was when Eric Belanger pulled out 5 or 6 of HIS OWN TEETH on THE BENCH! It was ridiculous, here’s a link,http://prohockeytalk.nbcsports.com/2010/04/video-eric-belanger-pull-out-own-tooth.php
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David Reply:
June 10th, 2010 at 4:16 pm
@USCG, It was actually only one, but still gnarly.
luc20rules Reply:
June 10th, 2010 at 5:49 pm
@USCG, What about props to another former King Ian Laperiere who blocked a puck with his head to win a key 1st round game for Philly got 70+ stiches and in a post game interview said he would be back in the next game. A doctor however stopped him by saying he had a Brain Bruise, but Lappy being Lappy manages to pass post concussion tests and got back in the Conference Championships to key the comeback from being down 3-0 to Boston.
luc20rules Reply:
June 10th, 2010 at 5:42 pm
@BakoCAkingsCondorsGuy, I wish, I could find the link to the actual reporting of it, but I remember when Hideo Nomo went on the 15 day disable list for a hang nail. Also more pitchers then one could count have gone on the 15 day disable list for blisters on there pitching hand.
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David Reply:
June 10th, 2010 at 8:56 pm
@luc20rules,
Try pitching with blisters on your hand
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Buster Reply:
June 11th, 2010 at 1:21 am
@David,
That and a busted fingernail can put a knuckleball pitcher on the IR for six months.
luc20rules Reply:
June 11th, 2010 at 10:40 pm
@David, Yes, it does limit types of pitches, and more importantly affects control. I pitched in H.S. & AA College level and maybe in those cases there is no ready replacement. The only option was to just stay ready for full or limited duty. A 93 mph fastball was good enough with a decent change up mixed in every once in a while. Its the control though if the pitch went where I wanted it was always a good day. I just know I would have more difficulty skating with a broken leg, broken ribs, or have someone make 70+ stiches with basically a fish hook in the locker room.
Oh and I have also finished a marathon after having blisters from the 10th mile and going the remaining 16 miles on or after they popped. Not the funnest way to do it, but I didn’t run 50 miles a week training for 6 months to quit(No Million Dollars, I had to pay to participate). So yeah, I think its fair to compare what pain tolerance is like between sports. I do understand though that sometimes its performance based not toughness.
@Buster, six months LOL, did the nail clean fall off!
So does Stoll’s TBD mean your thinking hes going to be traded Rich??
[Reply]
Ashley Reply:
June 10th, 2010 at 3:11 pm
@JJ4Pres,
Stoll is not TBD. The TBD is Frolov’s spot.
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PuckHead27 Reply:
June 10th, 2010 at 3:11 pm
@JJ4Pres,
The TBD is the LW for that line, Stoll is set at $3.6 million.
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Eric C. Reply:
June 10th, 2010 at 3:15 pm
@JJ4Pres, That TBD is the place holder for the second line left winger.
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If we get Kovalchuk, we have to get rid of Stoll and Williams. Even if we go for Whitney instead (use on 2nd line), I would like to see Schenn as the 2nd line center and Stoll on another team. Ideally, I would like to see Kovalchuk for $9mil, Whitney at $3.5 and Schenn at #2 center.
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Mike L Reply:
June 10th, 2010 at 4:25 pm
@Daniel,
9M$ is way too much, thats more than crosby and Ovehckin. 7.8-8.0 is pushing it anything over that no thank you
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number 6 Reply:
June 10th, 2010 at 5:45 pm
@Daniel,
NINE MILLION? NA NE NIEYEN MILLION? GEEEZ. Thank God you aren’t our Cap Manager. He’s won what… one playoff game out of nine and you’re considering giving him nine million. Um, how about offering him 5-6 million, obviously he won’t take it, and that will be that. He can go to the KHL or some other team. Maybe the Blackhawks. Oh wait, sorry, that won’t work will it.
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Paul From Oxnard Reply:
June 11th, 2010 at 4:50 am
@number 6, And yet I guarantee you he’s looking for $9M and will get close to that….although I’m betting it’ll be from a KHL team.
Also, no way I pay Whitney $3.5M. He’s too old. Maybe 5 or 6 years ago. I’d keep Stoll, trade Williams, and get Marleau before I’d sign Whitney or Kovalchuk.
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tantrum4 Reply:
June 11th, 2010 at 10:49 am
@number 6,
Kopitar has won only two playoff games and we’re paying him $6.8. And does Smyth deserve a raise from his $6.5 million because he’s won quite a few playoff games? I don’t really understand your argument for not wanting to pay Kovalchuk just because he’s only won one playoff game. Hockey is a team sport, you need good players around you and some goaltending to make the playoofs, and to win a few games once you get there. NO ONE can do it by themselves.
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VanKingsFan Reply:
June 11th, 2010 at 12:42 pm
@tantrum4,
Hockey is a team game, which is why you wouldn’t pay ONE player 9 million. I would not even dream of giving Kovy almost 3 times the amount of money Brownie gets, thats ludicrous. And I think the playoffs were brought up just to make the point that he hasn’t ever taken his team to that next level. NEVER with Atlanta, and then even with a good team (NJ) they failed miserably.
Imagine if the Kings got Kovy at the deadline like some people wanted us too. We would have given up a ton of young guys and prospects and then possibly pulled a Jersey and bowed out in the first round anyways… bad decision
Daniel Reply:
June 11th, 2010 at 4:18 pm
@Daniel, I’m looking at market value, not what I want. The Market always goes up, so you can’t point to a deal made in the past as what is fair or deserved.
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luc20rules Reply:
June 11th, 2010 at 5:43 pm
@Daniel, How can that be the Cap is going to be about the same this year as it was 2 years ago. Would you buy a 3 brm house in LA/Orange county for $500,000 just because everyone else was. Well I guess alot of people did, but look at the mess their in now. The difference between Kovi and Crosby/Ovechkin is the latter make others better, play D, play physical, and are great leaders with no weakness in there game. If I had to rate worth of Crosby/Ovechkin at 10 mil/yr then on that scale I would say Kovi maybe a 6.5 mil/yr, but open bidding drives prices up.
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With the money they may have under the cap, I would sign Willie Mitchell to replace Sean Odonnell and sign Paul Martin to replace Randy Jones since I do not think that any of the young d men that we have in Manchester are ready just yet. As for scoring, I would try and obtain one via a trade. If the Kings were able to sign those 2 d men that I mentioned, then I would have to believe that they would have the best 6 defensemen in the league and it would be what Lombardi is looking for with 3 mobile guys and 3 stay at home guys and all with NHL experience.
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John Reply:
June 10th, 2010 at 7:56 pm
@puck73,
We’ll really have to see what kind of summer guys like Voynov, Hickey, Drewiske & Martinez…and even Muzzin have – one, at least, has a shot at making the roster out of camp. But I do like signing Mitchell!
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puck73 Reply:
June 10th, 2010 at 11:16 pm
@John, Agreed. Willie Mitchell is in my opinion one of the top shutdown d men in the game and has been for a few years now. As for Paul Martin, he was New Jersey’s best d man last season and a Hybrid, meaning he is both mobile and a shutdown guy. I know a couple of people on this site like Hamhuis who is mobile but he wasnt nearly as good as Webber or Suter, where Mitchell and Martin were the best d men on their teams. Both Vancouver and New Jersey were clearly not as good when these 2 guys were out of their respective lineups.
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VanKingsFan Reply:
June 11th, 2010 at 12:44 pm
@puck73,
We don’t really knwo how Nash would have done without Hamhuis…
NO to Willie Mitchell!!!!!! Its unfortunate, but he might be another Deadmarsh case, bad concussion problems, his career might seriously be over. Too much risk, even if he does play again, one more knock on the head and he misses the whole season.
I like the Prime Minister though (Paul Martin; ex prime minister of Canada…. plus the initials…)
Hey Rich, why you didn’t include Eric Ersberg to that list? Last time i checked he was on the team with 0.750 cap hit.I am 99% sure he won’t be on Kings roster next year,but untill he is gone we should count his salary as well.
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USHA#17 Reply:
June 10th, 2010 at 4:15 pm
@kluka68,
Do you think the club may not be carrying Bernier next season?
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David Reply:
June 10th, 2010 at 4:17 pm
@USHA#17, We still have to pay for his cap hit until he is traded or whatever.
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softdumpnchase Reply:
June 10th, 2010 at 4:35 pm
@David, If he is in Manchester the cap hit would not apply.
quisp Reply:
June 10th, 2010 at 11:30 pm
@kluka68,
because ersberg will be traded. he would never make it to manchester. if lombardi tried to send him down, he would never clear waivers. he’ll be dealt for a 4th round pick.
[Reply]
puck73 Reply:
June 11th, 2010 at 9:29 am
@quisp, I agree with you, Ersberg is a solid goaltender and at the very least a career backup so their is no way he would ever clear waivers.
[Reply]
54FIGHTING Reply:
June 11th, 2010 at 7:30 pm
@quisp,
No way EE gets that much straight up. If DL pulls that off then he’s GM of the year in my book.
[Reply]
DougS Reply:
June 12th, 2010 at 12:11 pm
@54FIGHTING,
OTOH, DL did get a 7th for Aubin at the deadline. That was pretty impressive.
Someone was bound to mention it so it might as well be me. The Kings actually have more room than the 9 million. When you count bonus money they are looking at about 12. If the cap goes up 2 million we are looking at 14. There is a give and take there but let’s not get into that.
If Kovalchuk’s cap hit is any greater than 8 – then no thanks. There is no way this guys is worth 9 or 10 million a year when he is 35, 36 or 37
(if you give him a 10 year contract). Same with Marleau, the recent trend (with cap hits lowering toward the final years) is what I would expect from both players.
If Cliche is our 4th line center and not Schenn I will be amazed. It also isn’t hard to imagine that last D spot going to Martinez or one of the other kids (Muzzin, Voinov or Hickey) but would expect DL to have that figured out by late July/August and if he wants a vet like OD back there or someone similar then those kids get some call up time when injuries hit.
It’s been said over and over that it’s next year that things become tricky with DD, JJ and Simmonds needing new contracts – but like DL said on the radio – he wouldn’t mind being in a Chicago type situation.
Last, look at it this way. If you add a Kovalchuk or Marleau and are forced to lose a Williams or Stoll did you just make your team better or worse? I would think better (Marleau can play center too).
[Reply]
USHA#17 Reply:
June 10th, 2010 at 4:18 pm
@54FIGHTING,
There is no way Kovalchuk is worth $9m even now. He’s a left wing who doesn’t (or won’t) play two way hockey.
If he’s that good why doesn’t NJ sign him?
[Reply]
54FIGHTING Reply:
June 10th, 2010 at 10:45 pm
@USHA#17,
NJ does want to sign him.
[Reply]
puck73 Reply:
June 11th, 2010 at 9:36 am
@54FIGHTING, obviously you dont know Lou Lamoureillo very well, he will never pay Kovi 9 mil a year. Heck, he didnt pay Scott Niedermeyer who was a difference maker big money when he was in his prime so their is no way he will pay that kind of money.
54FIGHTING Reply:
June 11th, 2010 at 7:39 pm
@puck73,
That wasn’t the arguement.
For you though, did anyone even think NJ was in on Kovi? How about with Mogilny? Lou is different. Who’s saying he didn’t offer Niedermayer big money but was turned down because he wanted to play with his brother? He also left as a UFA at 32 – not prime for defensemen.
Salaries to TRADE (Not dump, IMHO) Affordable assets to leverage “Salary HandiCapped” teams, for additional offensive production, proven veteran leadership, and NHL Stanley Cup playoff experience.
Jarret Stoll @ 3.6 (UFA 2012) Solid 2-way C
Justin Williams @ 3.5 (UFA 2011) Top 6 Winger
Eric Ersberg @ .75 (UFA 2011) Dependable #2G
Davis Drewiske @ .61 (UFA 2012) Young ‘value’ D
Brad Richardson @ TBD (RFA 2010) Sell HIGH
Oscar Moller @ .87 (RFA 2011) BIG CHIP PROSPECT
In my version as an ‘arm-chair’ GM, I would target:
Jeff Carter @ 5.0 (RFA 2010) RW #01 or #02 C
Ian Laperriere @ 1.16 (UFA 2012) Heart of a King
Patrick Sharp @ 3.9 (UFA 2012) Sniper with Cup Exp
Eric Fehr @ TBD (RFA 2010) Young Gun
Johnny Boychuk @ 1.5es(UFA 2010) Eddie Shore winner
Sean O’Donnell @ 1.25 (UFA 2010) Patriarch of the “D”
And, promote:
Brayden Schenn
Kyle Clifford
Marc-Andre Cliche
Kevin Westgarth
Thomas Hickey
Jonathan Bernier
[Reply]
USCG Reply:
June 10th, 2010 at 4:02 pm
@LBlocal, dude with ALL those rookies, there’s no way we make the play offs. That’s just too much youth that has ZERO NHL experience let alone play off experience.
[Reply]
LBlocal Reply:
June 10th, 2010 at 4:13 pm
@USCG, Do you think so?
In my hypothetical ‘promotionS;’ Only 3 players on the list have NEVER played in the NHL (Clifford, Westgarth, Hickey) And, all three are close, if not ready, IMO.
[Reply]
David Reply:
June 10th, 2010 at 4:21 pm
@LBlocal, Lets be real here. Both Schenn and Cliche have only played one game in the NHL.
USCG Reply:
June 10th, 2010 at 4:49 pm
@LBlocal, I just think that would take us too far back dude, kinda like what happened to Caroline and Columbus, they brought in a big youth movement at once after a successful season and bam! back to zero!
mcsorelyfan Reply:
June 10th, 2010 at 7:26 pm
@LBlocal, Westgarth didn’t play this past season, but did play the previous season when Ivanans was out and folks were taking liberties.
LBlocal Reply:
June 10th, 2010 at 4:55 pm
@USCG/David: I have to respectfully disagree, but do appreciate your points of view.
In my estimation, I wouldn’t have ANY ISSUE with the following 2010-11 lineup:
Smyth-Kopitar-Carter(Fehr)
Sharp-Schenn(Carter)-Brown
Clifford-Handzus-Simmonds
Laperierre-Cliche-Westgarth
Clune, Parse
Doughty-Scuderi
Johnson-Green
Boychuk-Hickey
O’Donnell
Harrold
Quick
Bernier
$3.3M under the Cap!
[Reply]
USCG Reply:
June 10th, 2010 at 5:20 pm
@LBlocal, thats a good looking team right there, but I thought you were talking about adding our minor leaguers to the bigs without getting players from other teams in return. sorry for the confusion, i thought you were saying something like this,
smyth kopi williams
simmonds schenn brown
rookie-richardson-parse
rookie-rookie-rookie
doughty scuderi
johnson greene
rookie-rookie
with that kind of a line up like i just posted, no way we do anything close to what we did this season. But yeah with yours, I agree, we would be sick!
USCG Reply:
June 10th, 2010 at 5:20 pm
@LBlocal, I forgot to throw in Clune and Moller but you get it…
luc20rules Reply:
June 10th, 2010 at 6:05 pm
@LBlocal, If the Philly GM gave up Jeff Carter for anyone other than Sidney Crosby or Alex Ovechkin he will be hanged from the Rocky statue. Not a threat just what I assume an angry mob would do. Part of that is also how much of a bargain he is at 5 mil/yr. Also we have a ton of youth on the team and I want to see some of the prospects for 5-10 games this year and lets keep the ones maybe that look ready and fit the system. But if we want to make a push in the playoffs we will need a balance of Vets and youth.
[Reply]
DieHard66 Reply:
June 11th, 2010 at 1:58 pm
@luc20rules, As a lifelong Flyers fan I dont think that is the case. Carter drives me crazy. I dont want him on the Kings and am growing tired of his emotionless play.
[Reply]
luc20rules Reply:
June 11th, 2010 at 6:05 pm
@DieHard66, 145 pts over the last 2 reg. seasons and only 25 years old. He hasn’t even peaked yet, and this drive deep into the playoffs may have taught him something.
But, still I haven’t seen him play much and will differ to your assessment.
Daniel Reply:
June 11th, 2010 at 2:20 pm
@LBlocal, This goes out to everyone – how can anyone logically think Hickey is ready for the bigs? He was injured most of last season and needs a FULL season in the AHL to get hockey ready.
[Reply]
LBlocal Reply:
June 11th, 2010 at 8:42 pm
@Daniel, Hockey’s Future take:
“Talent Analysis
Hickey’s strong suit is his skating ability, a skill that has enabled him to excel in the WHL at a young age. Another product of the successful Hockey Canada programs, Hickey exudes confidence on and off the ice. He plays bigger than his 5’11, 185-pound frame might suggest. A well-spoken player with great on-ice vision. Uses his skating ability to move the puck out of the zone and pressure the opposition’s forwards up-ice. Might develop into a future powerplay quarterback.
Future
Projects as a top pairing defenseman, one that can quarterback the power play and has the mobility to move the puck up-ice rapidly. Hickey has more grit to him than his body frame would suggest. With nothing left to prove in major junior hockey and demonstrating that he can play solid defense in addition to his offensive skills, Hickey is a front-runner to make the NHL squad as a 6th defenseman at some point during the 2009-10 season. As he gains professional experience, his role with Los Angeles will increase.”
Profile Last Updated: February, 26th 2010
And, this:
REGULAR SEASON PLAYOFFS
GP G A Pts PIM GP G A Pts PIM
WHL 262 39 138 161 207 27 5 16 21 18
AHL 26 2 11 13 14 4 0 3 3 0
Further: http://www.cbc.ca/sports/indepth/feature-hockey-hickey.html
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/hockey/2008674220_birds270.html
Now, it’s all up to Thomas Hickey. A strong summer, pathologically working out ala Brown, Simmonds, Greener et al. And, gaining 10-15lbs muscle mass while training intensely with Tim Adams’ regiment. Staying healthy, just as he finished 09-10 in Manchester. Healthy.
It’s his #05/06 D slot to lose.
Injuries are always a factor. We’re talking hockey after all. My hope is for his success as a King, now, and in the long term future.
[Reply]
hey Rich over the last few hours when I come onto this website i get the following messageTo view this page, you must log in to area “hammond” on http://www.lakingsnetwork.com.
It then asks for a password and login but I just skip it, any idea what this means? It’s not for posting but just for viewing the site. Thanks.
[Reply]
BakoCAkingsCondorsGuy Reply:
June 10th, 2010 at 4:28 pm
@USCG,
Same here.
Annoying.
[Reply]
USCG Reply:
June 10th, 2010 at 4:48 pm
@BakoCAkingsCondorsGuy, the mystery continues…
[Reply]
Tmik Reply:
June 10th, 2010 at 5:25 pm
@USCG, I have the same issue, But clearly I can view and post as well. It’s an auth server asking for Authentication for some strange reason.
[Reply]
LomitaKingsFan Reply:
June 10th, 2010 at 5:52 pm
@Tmik, The LaKingsInsider banner is not displaying. This leads me to think someone accidentally moved it to a protected directory which is why we are getting the prompt when the page tries to load. Just a thought.
[Reply]
LomitaKingsFan Reply:
June 10th, 2010 at 5:55 pm
@LomitaKingsFan, Quick check of the page source shows http://www.lakingsnetwork.com/hammond/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/lowband2.jpg is the first image that it tries to load. Hitting that directly gives the same login prompt. The /hammond directory is probably where Rich keeps all the top-secret stuff like DL’s phone#, his evil twin Anthony and of course Mikas.
Dominick Reply:
June 10th, 2010 at 6:13 pm
I was having the same problem.I kept going into my settings,thinking one of my little brat nefews had changed something.
I keep trying to come up with a pass word,but the prompt would’nt except”screw your self”.
[Reply]
deadcatbounce Reply:
June 10th, 2010 at 6:41 pm
@Dominick, Just hit “escape” and the screen will go away.
Buster Reply:
June 11th, 2010 at 1:30 am
@USCG,
It happened the last three times with me as well.
[Reply]
Rich,
You didn’t mention the bonus cushion that applies to Doughty’s cap number. I believe we can go “over the cap” by about $2.5M since Doughty’s base salary is about $1M.
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luc20rules Reply:
June 10th, 2010 at 6:08 pm
@sd, With DD though it is almost a guarantee that we will have to pay what we go over in 2011-12, and thats the year we need to sign several of our young studs (DD, Bernier, JJ, etc).
[Reply]
I highly doubt that Hickey makes the team next season. The Kings have always been cautious with their talent and with Hickey not being able to play a full season the AHL, I would think thats where he starts. Hickey will probably get called up at some point next season but not for a permanent stay. He will be with the Kings full time in the 11-12 season.
[Reply]
puck73 Reply:
June 11th, 2010 at 9:55 am
@ManchVegas, I agree, and I will go a step further..I dont think any of these young mobile d men that are in Manchester are ready to play 82 games in the NHL yet and thats why I say sign Willie Mitchell to replace OD and Paul Martin to replace Randy Jones. If we sign these 2 guys then are defense will be dominant and make life easier for Quick and Bernier.
[Reply]
Thought this was funny…
Jonathon Toews won the Conn Smythe as the playoff MVP – activating a $1.3 million bonus in his contract. The Blackhawks were so close to the cap that this pushed them well over the cap. The Hawks will now have a $1.3 million LOWER cap next year. How bittersweet is that!
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USCG Reply:
June 10th, 2010 at 6:30 pm
@markisonfire, bahahahaha sucks to be them next year and even worst, the year after. I’ll take Patrick Sharp please and thank you
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How ahout this Kings give up Bernnier the top 5 prospect thst not in NHL to get the 1st or 2nd pick? Edm and Bos might need a goalie. Hall or Seguin
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Freezang Reply:
June 10th, 2010 at 6:38 pm
@sammuch,
Boston has Rask
And I would consider Bernier almost untouchable
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markisonfire Reply:
June 10th, 2010 at 7:02 pm
@sammuch,
Not a chance. Boston won’t be trading the #2 for a goalie, no matter how good of a goalie Bernier may be (and Rask is arguably equal) and the #1 pick simply means too much to Edmonton as a city and franchise. Would you have traded the #2 pick that we chose Doughty with?
[Reply]
USCG Reply:
June 10th, 2010 at 7:50 pm
@sammuch, I said this in a previous thread and i’ll say it again, Taylor Hall and Seguin ARE NOT dynamic or team changing players! They ARE NOT Crosby or Ovechkin. Why people don’t understand this I still don’t get. We would be hurting ourselves, not improving the team by much if we had to take one of those two and give up 6 players. Either way, thats a ridiculous thing to talk about, since it would not happen, EVER.
[Reply]
USCG Reply:
June 10th, 2010 at 7:53 pm
@USCG, One more player to compare them to, neither of them are even Stamkos status. They are good, but they aren’t gonna lead a team to such great heights like the pens/capitals/eventually tampa bay.
[Reply]
sammuch Reply:
June 10th, 2010 at 8:16 pm
@USCG,
I watch this kid Hall! If you think he will not be frachise player you wrong!He not OVI or CROS he a Hall and he will be one off the top 5 players in 3 years. We shall see who is correct.
Just a note, I love Bernier, he just might win the rookie of year! Hall is the only player I would give up for Hall for he will become frachose player… He took charge of his team won the cup twice and took them Junior gold medal. Was the C for both!
[Reply]
David Reply:
June 10th, 2010 at 8:51 pm
@sammuch,
I have no idea what you just said.
Michael Reply:
June 11th, 2010 at 12:46 am
@sammuch,
hahahaha @David
WWAMD Reply:
June 10th, 2010 at 10:13 pm
@sammuch,
I’ve seen Hall play for over 3 years in junior. I’ve watched Stamkos play in junior for a few years. However, I see Hall on a weekly basis.
I’ve seen Bernier play a handful of times.
YOU DO NOT want to trade Bernier for Hall.
I will tell you now. Hall will flop in the NHL. He will be a Spezza. that is all.
Lokti and Hall played on the same team. Lokti was just ask skilled as Hall. Hall will be pushed around in the NHL as he does in the OHL.
ALSO Hall is not a team player. I talk to a lot of the Windsor guys and it comes up in conversation that a lot of them do not like him and he is a puck hog. Sooooo.
With that in mind…NO TO HALL
Seguin, I don’t know much about. But I’m sure he’s no Bernier
[Reply]
USCG Reply:
June 10th, 2010 at 11:18 pm
@WWAMD, thanks for the personal experience for back up. I don’t understand why people think this is gonna be a stellar draft class. It’s gonna be a bunch of good players, but nothing great.
[Reply]
sammuch Reply:
June 11th, 2010 at 4:32 pm
@USCG,
Agian, do not get me wrong, Bernier is the goalie of future. Just to me, I think Hall will show he is as good as I say… Say if the kings did want to move up in the draft to get the best player, eveyone would want Bernier for the other team to give up the top choice.
I am still a Hall fan and that wont change me saying he will be a Heatly type of player, I would love to see him on the Kings.
Beneier will take the Kings to cup finals one day soon. So of cource I would keep Bernier if you truly want to win the Cup. I just hope with the draft being in LA and the Kings want make a splash that to get that 1st or 2nd pick, those team want Bernier. Now if I had to decide witch one… I would take Hall. If it was me I keep Bernier. He is the next ROY in my book.
DougS Reply:
June 11th, 2010 at 12:49 am
@sammuch,
Bernier will not be traded this summer, nor should he be. The Kings have gone to too much trouble to ensure that they will be able to alternate Bernier and Quick over the next 2-3 years, thus ensuring them high-quality goaltending at a relatively cheap price.
DL will not trade either Quick or Bernier this summer, not unless the return is truly mind-blowing.
[Reply]
I do not think we need a sniper. I think we have enough cap space to put together four solid lines and adding a player like Plekanec would give a true number two center and Stoll would then be our number three center.
Sign one, stay at home physical D-men, fill another d-men spot from within, and this will make us a better over all team, rather than blowing your nut on one player.
[Reply]
David Reply:
June 10th, 2010 at 10:11 pm
@Dave,
Where would Handzus go? Surely not the fourth line.
And imo, we do need a goal scorer especially if we lose Fro.
[Reply]
WWAMD Reply:
June 10th, 2010 at 10:14 pm
@Dave,
Every good army needs a good criminal…Dean said that right?
But every good army DEFINITELY needs a good sniper. I believe the Kings need a good sniper to put us over the hump.
[Reply]
Cry Baby Reply:
June 11th, 2010 at 9:06 pm
@WWAMD, Plekanec’s turtleneck makes me want to puke!
[Reply]
Im a huge fan of Patrick Sharp and think he would be a great pick up for the team and at a decent price thats not going to hurt us.
[Reply]
Nice article by H.E. of the Times in tomorrow’s paper. Even though she was bashing DL for his methodical rebuild for the first three years.
http://www.latimes.com/sports/hockey/nhl/la-sp-elliott-kings-20100611,0,2776725.column?track=rss&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+latimes%2Fsports%2Fhockey%2Fnhl%2Fkings+%28L.A.+Times+-+Kings%29
[Reply]
txkingsfan Reply:
June 11th, 2010 at 11:54 am
@jet, I know I’ve been criticized for my dislike of Helene Elliot in the past but every time I read her work about the Kings, it comes across with such disdain, such a lack of respect for the team. I understand that she was upset and hurt by AEG & Liewieke in the past plus her very apparent love of the Ducks, but you are a journalist and you have a code to uphold. And we wonder why print media is slowly withering away …
[Reply]
DougS Reply:
June 11th, 2010 at 2:07 pm
@jet,
I can’t help but sneer at how she has almost turned on a dime in how she treats DL this season. That’s mainly because I, like some other folks around here, seemed to understand what DL was up to a lot earlier than she did.
What that article fails to point out is that DL hopes to be a lot smarter than the Hawks so that he won’t have to dynamite the team just when its mojo really starts to work.
[Reply]
I think it’s pretty likely that Clifford, Muzzin and Bernier will make the team. I would be willing to say it’s certain that two of them will. Schenn I think is somewhere between possible and likely.
Richardson will get his raise. Clune will get re-signed with a nominal raise. And that leaves about $9MM in cap space. Lombardi has hinted that prospects will get a shot at key defense slots. Which kind of suggests he’ll sign an O’Donnell type veteran and let Muzzin and company fight it out for the other spot.
Which leaves room for a forward signing in the $5-6MM range (if you look at the numbers for the following season, it doesn’t make sense to eat up as much as $9MM this summer).
But Lombardi could also look to trade for a top-six winger, promote Schenn to C2, and sign a UFA defenseman.
Bottom line: one or two new faces, via trade or free agency. And Schenn, Clifford, Muzzin, Bernier, Hickey, Voynov, Lewis and Loktionov (and Westgarth, I guess) fighting it out for two forward spots and one or two d spots.
[Reply]
Real 9 Reply:
June 11th, 2010 at 5:05 am
@Quisp,
Oscar Moller may not let us forget about him.
A strong camp would present some even more interesting trade possibilities. I agree about Muzzin; looks like a solid bet for the future.
[Reply]
txkingsfan Reply:
June 11th, 2010 at 11:55 am
@Real 9, a strong camp preceded by gaining about 15lbs! I’m just saying ..
[Reply]
Crown Royal Reply:
June 11th, 2010 at 5:44 am
@Quisp,
Bernier will make the team barring goaltender injuries. The Kings will not send him down and risk messing with his mind about that.
Earlier this past season I would have bet both Loktionov and Voynov would probably have made the team this coming season but injuries to both have made them longshots to start the season in L.A.
Westgarth will make the team if healthy. The Kings would like to see Lewis as a former first rounder become a succesful NHL’er but remember he was drafted BEFORE DL put his current group of scouts in place. Translation: Lewis probably doesn’t have as much support in the organization as some of the other first rounders drafted later have. Scouts basically bet their jobs on the players they tout.
Clifford, Schenn, and Muzzin are the kind of tough, physical players the Kings want to build around so it’s more about if they are ready.
Hickey is the dark horse. His injuries have held him back but he has talent and leadership abilities. He can move the puck and quarterback a powerplay. If healthy he may make the team paired with Greene and get extra minutes on the PP. Other than Muzzin he is the most likely D-man prospect to make the team.
Moller and Martinez have already played in L.A. and can’t be counted out. They both have offensive ability and can skate.
[Reply]
quisp Reply:
June 11th, 2010 at 10:45 am
@Crown Royal,
Two things.
(1) There is no doubt that Bernier will make the team, as I have been saying for about a year now. I didn’t mean to imply otherwise.
(2) I wasn’t leaving Moller out. He’s already made the team in my mind. He will probably make several plane trips back and forth this season, but still. He’s got a leg up on everyone else.
[Reply]
Crown Royal Reply:
June 12th, 2010 at 5:56 am
@quisp,
I too have been a big Moller supporter from his draft day. I think his long term impact with Kings is contingent on how DL ends up shaping the Kings roster. Oscar can skate, shoot, and nobody is more competitive. I’ve said before he reminds me of a more offensively gifted Mike Keane.
If DL signs free agents or makes trades this summer those specific decisions can impact the entire team for years. Certain roles have to be filled or assumed within the team. Nobody knows which players will develop and part of that development involves opportunity. The more long term contracts; the less chance for young players to jump in and perform. Also if Kovalchuck is signed it gives the Russians (Loktionov-Voinov) more value. Barring injuries and trades (and signings) I’m betting on the following current prospects long term.
Bernier, Westgarth, Schenn, Clifford, King, Muzzin, Hickey, Moller and Loktionov.
Holloway is a player to keep on the radar. I haven’t seen Kaunisto but he projects well. Hopefully the talent pool will be so deep that ten more of these prospects can be added to the list!
Great article here about the Kings goalies:
http://www.thehockeynews.com/articles/34011-The-Boylen-Point-Building-from-within-beats-buying-a-free-agent-goalie.html
[Reply]
What team to win The Cup hasnt been in cap trouble? Ducks, Wings, Penguins, Hawks ? I wonder who thinks we are going to win while being 10 Million under cap. Guess thats why we are all wannabe GM’s. Isnt so easy huh. Guess its alot harder to make these decisions than to blog opinions.
Answer this who on this team = Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Franssen, Samuelsson, Holmstrom. or Toews, Kane, Hossa, Byfglein, versteeg or Crosby, Malkin etc etc etc. Might be time to pony up Deano if we want the cup. Aint gonna happen with Kopitar, Brown, Smyth, Stoll, Williams see a difference here, only one of those guys are a leauge leader.
[Reply]
quisp Reply:
June 11th, 2010 at 10:50 am
@RLane420,
Your logic is all fuzzy. The Kings are only 10 million under the cap in your mind. Chicago is roughly $14MM over. There’s quite a bit of difference there. Chicago won the cup but they just as easily could not have, and all of their stupidity was set in motion well over a year ago. They’re screwed. We’re not.
The Kings will be within a couple million of the ceiling this year, but not pressed up against it. This is not because of a lack of will to win. It’s because of a lack of will to lose Doughty, Simmonds, Moller, Bernier and Johnson when their contracts are up in 2011.
[Reply]
JB Reply:
June 11th, 2010 at 1:57 pm
@quisp,
Sorry quispy but as we saw last year your prognostications of teams dumping are always overblown. Chicago is not $14 mil over cap. Nor will they have to trade any of those major pieces.
Last year you were going on about San Jose being over and they wouldn’t be able to play a full roster without dumping major pieces.. yada yada yada.
Your can be reasonable on some points but tend to hyperventilate when it comes to the cap and #’s.
[Reply]
Eric C. Reply:
June 11th, 2010 at 3:40 pm
@JB, Chicago might not be $14 mill over the Cap, but if they were to re-sign all of the pieces they have that are UFA’s or RFA’s they would be.
They’re already $700k over and only have 14 players signed.
http://www.capgeek.com/charts.php?Team=11
David Reply:
June 11th, 2010 at 3:45 pm
@Eric,
And does that 700k over include Toews winning the Conn Smythe which activates his bonus?
Eric C. Reply:
June 11th, 2010 at 4:43 pm
@David, I don’t think the capgeek figure includes that bonus, no. But 700k over or 700k under, it doesn’t matter. With just 14 players signed and at least 20 needed to ice a full team, Chicago has a major headache on their hands and will have to take a lot of picks and prospects back in return for quality, proven, cup winning, NHL players.
DougS Reply:
June 11th, 2010 at 6:37 pm
@JB, David, Eric C.
Just to add to what David and Eric C. have already said about the Capgeek figures:
That means that the Hawks are now just over the salary cap with only 14 players signed, and assuming that they’ll let Niemi, Ladd, Madden, Johnssen, Boynton, Burish walk as FAs.
So in other words, if they were to field a roster of only 20 players next season, filling the empty spots with nothing but minimum wage, $500k/year nobodies, they would still be $2-3 million over the cap, and subject to all the penalties thereof. And they would still be stuck with Huet as their #1 goalie, because without Niemi, their other goalie would have to be one of those $500k/year nobodies. And they couldn’t bring up one of their premiere prospects like Kyle Beach, because that would put them even further over the cap.
So yeah, I should say that the Hawks are in trouble this summer. You just have to do the math.
Quisp Reply:
June 11th, 2010 at 7:11 pm
@JB,
Really? Hmm. I remember making three predictions. Let’s go to the record. (I am actually looking up what I said as we speak)
San Jose: I said they had to either trade Thorton or Marleau, or dump two of Cheechoo, Mikhalek or Erhoff. They dumped all three plus Lukowich and picked up Heatley and promoted minimum wagers. So I was exactly right. Instead of dumping two salaries, they dumped four and picked up one big one.
So your yadda-yadda is totally out of line.
Detroit: I said there was no way the Wings could afford to sign Hossa and would in fact have to let more than one other crucial piece go. And what happened? Hossa, Samuelsson and Hudler left, almost exactly as predicted.
Chicago: I said that Chicago shouldn’t sign Hossa or it would be in real trouble the following summer (i.e. now). I said there was no way they could retain everyone. And for the last several months everyone has come around to my position of over a year ago. The dumping began with Barker a few months ago, and will continue all summer.
As far as them being $14MM over the cap, I guess you can’t add. If you think they are only at around $57MM, you must think they will dress only 14 players.
The roster that they just won the cup with, if you add up their cap hits for next year, is in actual exact and not in any way exaggerated fact $14.5MM over, assuming you re-sign Niemi at $3MM, Ladd at $3MM, two other RFAs at cheap contracts and fill out the entire roster with minimum wagers. I went through all this in excruciating detail here: http://www.jewelsfromthecrown.com/2010/6/10/1512458/what-do-campbell-huet-sopel-ladd#storyjump
But here are the actual numbers. There is absolutely no room for debate whatsoever. You can swap in and out different names, but the result is the same. You’re welcome to put your own prediction on record, as I have.
Jonathan Toews — $6,300,000
Patrick Kane — $6,300,000
Marian Hossa — $5,275,000
Patrick Sharp — $3,900,000
Dave Bolland — $3,375,000
Kris Versteeg — $3,083,333
* Andrew Ladd — $3,000,000
Dustin Byfuglien — $3,000,000
* Ben Eager — $1,800,000
Kyle Beach ($325,000) $1,200,000
Tomas Kopecky — $1,200,000
Troy Brouwer — $1,025,000
* Adam Burish — $712,000
DEFENSEMEN
Brian Campbell — $7,142,875
Duncan Keith — $5,538,462
Brent Seabrook — $3,500,000
Brent Sopel — $2,333,333
* Nick Boynton — $1,500,000
* Niklas Hjalmarsson — $1,200,000
Brian Connelly ($287,500) $875,000
GOALTENDERS
Cristobal Huet — $5,625,000
* Antti Niemi — $3,000,000
* BONUS CUSHION PENALTY — $964,000
ROSTER SIZE 22
SALARY CAP $56,800,000
PAYROLL $71,849,003
BONUSES $612,500
CAP SPACE ($14,436,503)
So as far as I can tell, I’m batting 1.000.
Everyone said that Detroit would find a way to figure it out. They didn’t. San Jose took the less sexy route of dumping the smaller big salaries. And now Chicago, well har-de-har-har.
nobody thinks I’m wrong about Chicago now. Except some hawks fans who just can’t bear to look.
but really…let’s hear your version. I’m dying to know what Chicago is going to do.
You say they’re not going to have to lose any of those big names. Don’t really know who you mean, but here’s what I said elsewhere in this thread:
“Ladd, Sharp, Versteeg, Bolland, Byfuglien or Seabrook. At least two and as many as three of them will not be Hawks a year from now, and at least one (probably two) will leave this summer.”
Got it? One or two this summer, and another one by this time next year. And it will only be that minimal if they’re willing to exile Campbell and Huet to the AHL, buy them out, or trick someone into taking them in trade. If not, you can subtract more names.
DLB Reply:
June 11th, 2010 at 7:21 pm
@JB, “Chicago is not $14 mil over cap. Nor will they have to trade any of those major pieces.”
Oh, really? I’d take that bet.
Quisp Reply:
June 11th, 2010 at 8:52 pm
@JB,
Just for extra clarification. The whole Chicago question is, “can the team that won the cup stay together?” My response to this question is, okay, let’s start with the players they have, re-sign the obvious RFAs, fill out the roster with the cheapest guys they have under contract, and see where they are.
And where they are is $14.5MM over.
That’s the starting point. From there, there are many possible fixes.
Follow the link in my last comment for the whole thing, if you’re interested. But any attempt at minimizing damage begins with dispensing with Campbell, Huet, and maybe Sopel. Because if you don’t get rid of (at least) Campbell and Huet, you’re going to have to give up much more than the one or two of the $3MM contracts they have. After you figure out what to do with the big toxic contracts, you have a choice of either dumping a couple of $3MM players, or dumping one big $7MM one (Kane, Toews). Don’t think they’re getting rid of those guys. So it’s the Sharp/Versteeg group that’s vulnerable.
Quisp Reply:
June 11th, 2010 at 9:41 pm
@JB,
God is out to destroy your argument.
This is actually just about the funniest thing I have ever heard. Wait for it.
It turns out…
…Kane and Toews…
…hit all of their bonus targets this year…
…FIVE MILLION DOLLARS WORTH…
…ALL OF WHICH (except about $300K) GETS SUBTRACTED FROM THEIR CAP CEILING NEXT YEAR.
I am not kidding. This is not a joke. Well, it is a joke. But it’s true.
JB Reply:
June 11th, 2010 at 10:29 pm
@quisp,
Having gone back to your posts last year I see now even more how much hyperbole you spout. I love all your predictions about philly and San Jose and Detroit being in big trouble. I don’t recall any salary dumps by those teams. They made trades yes but not salary dumps where the other team got the better end of the deal. Most of those teams on your Idiot Cap Chart that were in trouble did pretty well. Other than maybe Ottawa.
Go on on about Chicago all you want. They will make some deals I’m sure and you’ll claim to be right and forget that original point was that all Stanley Cup winners and other playoff contenders are in “cap trouble”. Yet somehow they manage.
[Reply]
JB Reply:
June 11th, 2010 at 10:40 pm
@quisp,
On Chi specifically- They could lose any combination of Ladd, Sopel, Huet, Bolland, Brower, Eager Burrish and Boynton and be contenders again. No dispute they can’t go w/ exact same roster. Again I don’t no where someone posted that question cuz no one comes back w/ exact same roster. Stanley Cup or last place. The point was what champion team or other successful playoff teams aren’t flirting with the cap?
They can get rid of Huet. There are at least 3 teams w/o starting caliber goalies if not more. Sopel is journeyman D that someone would take.
NHLnumbers has Chi at $57 mil w/ 9 F, 5 D and 2 goalies. So yeah they got some work to do. Dumping Huet and Sopel gives them $7 mil to play with. It can be done.
DougS Reply:
June 11th, 2010 at 10:48 pm
@JB,
Dude, you’re the one misstating positions here. Where exactly was Quisp wrong? How are trades made so that you jigger your roster to conform to the salary cap NOT salary dumps?
Did not Detroit have a fall-off this season, in large part because they did not have the depth to cover for injuries? How can you say that they did just fine?
Did you not follow Eric C.’s link to Capgeek and look at the numbers for yourself? It’s pretty clear that Chicago will have to lose a lot of moving parts this summer. Before you criticize other people’s projections, I suggest you try to work out the puzzle yourself and try to figure a better way out for the Hawks.
Otherwise, you just come off as someone who can’t do the math and resents people who can.
DougS Reply:
June 11th, 2010 at 11:07 pm
@JB,
Seriously? Do you really think that the Hawks will find someone to take Huet without having to take some salary in return? $5.6 mil/year for a mediocre starting goalie, and the Hawks will not have to eat some stuffing in return, as Colorado did when the Kings palmed off Preissing in the Smyth deal? Easier said than done. And their replacements will be minimum-salary nobodies, not quality prospects like Beach.
DougS Reply:
June 11th, 2010 at 11:09 pm
@JB,
Also, if the reports about the bonuses are true, then the Hawks cap ceiling is not $57 mil for next year. It’s more like $54 mil.
Quisp Reply:
June 11th, 2010 at 11:43 pm
@JB,
The hyperbole I spout? It’s not hyperbole. It’s adding.
I notice you’re not quoting anything I said. You say you didn’t notice any teams shedding salary, like Detroit (Hossa, Samuelsson, Hudler, Kopecky), San Jose (Erhoff, Lukowich, Cheechoo), Philly (ended up just hiding behind their LTIR — I’ll give you that one), and Chicago…
Pittsburgh’s cap troubles lost them Scuderi and Gill, who they could have used – many think that’s the difference between last year and this year. Detroit was certainly hurt by those subtractions this season. Philly didn’t make any moves and was one shoot-out away from missing the playoffs and may well miss them next year. San Jose did what they always do and now they’re talking about rebuilding. My prediction re Detroit was that they couldn’t sign Hossa and would lose some other pieces, and of course this happened.
And Chicago? Well, here’s some of the hyperbole from the “cap idiots” post you are referring to. Let’s see how cwazy and off-base I was…
(from last july):
“Some people are wondering if Tallon is going to dip into his bonus cushion this season in order to keep his team going [HE DID]. After all, what are the odds that KANE AND TOEWS are going to earn their bonuses [THEY DID]? Accordingly, the new column is called MADNESS [follow link for the chart]. [...] blowing the bonus cushion on a roster of 22 is the most crazy I was willing to imagine anyone reasonably being with another millionaire’s money. [...] Note that Chicago is over the cap but they still have room to spend if they flirt with MADNESS.”
Hyperbole, right? I called it a year ago. And lo and behold, look what was announced today…
They had to pay out the bonuses for Toews and Kane, causing a $4.5-5MM penalty to be applied to their cap ceiling for next year.
Is any of this getting through?
Right now, with the cap ceiling at $56.8, the hawks will have a ceiling of $52-53MM.
Therefore, as of this minute, according to you, they’re about $5MM over the cap, with 14 (you said 15 but it’s 14) players signed. You say they’re going to trade Huet? (That’s not going to happen. No one is going to take a $5MM back up off their hands. Any GM who would do that should be immediately fired.) They can bury him in the minors. Okay. Now they’re exactly at the cap ceiling. They have zero goalies, nine forwards and five defensemen. Sign Niemi. That’s $3MM. Now you’re $3MM over the cap again. Use Crawford as the back-up. Now you’re about $4MM over the cap. Not going to let the defensemen whose name I can’t spell walk away for nothing. That would be crazy. That’s another $2MM. Now you’re $6MM over the cap. You’ve got 17 players. You’re not going to bury Campbell in the minors for 6 years. And no one is going to trade for him without incentives to do so, and Chicago ain’t taking salary back. So, buy him out. Savings of about $4MM. But you have to promote someone to take his place. Call it a net savings of $3.5MM. Now you’re only $2.5 over the cap. You’re letting Ladd walk for nothing; he’ll get $3MM somewhere else. You’re letting Eager walk for nothing. You’re letting Madden, Boynton, Burish all walk, not that this is a big deal in and of itself. You could keep Burish, actually, and pay him peanuts. You can forget about letting Beach play next year. You have to use your cheaper prospects to fill the spaces. And you have to promote a minimum of three and a max of five of them. That’s $2.5MM at least. So now you’re back to $5MM over the cap.
Pick two of Byfuglien, Sharp, Versteeg, BOlland, Seabrook. You already got rid of Barker, Ladd, Eager, Campbell and Huet. Let’s say Sharp and Versteeg. Savings of $7MM (off the top of my head). But, have to promote two more prospects to take their places. Call it a savings of $5.5MM.
HEY YOU’RE UNDER THE CAP!
And all you’ve had to lose is Campbell, Huet, Barker, Eager, Sharp, Versteeg and Ladd. Plus all the UFAs (Madden, Boynton…)
Nine players out of 20. Yes. Not EXACTLY the same roster. But almost, I guess. It’s a MAJORITY, right?
I’m still waiting for your own special “Chicago will still compete and not have to give up any major pieces” plan.
[Reply]
USCG Reply:
June 12th, 2010 at 1:17 am
@Quisp, I would hate to be on your bad side. Sometimes, before I try and state numbers and such on this site, I try and make sure I know what I’m talking about so I don’t have to feel the wrath of Quisp !
[Reply]
Duckhunter Reply:
June 12th, 2010 at 3:37 am
@Quisp,
Wow, 18 million over the cap next year!?! With that mess, I wouldn’t be surprised to see Hossa on the block as well. Kane and Toews are sure going to be lonely next year when all their friends are gone. That’s too bad, I enjoyed watching them skate this play-off year.
[Reply]
quisp Reply:
June 12th, 2010 at 7:39 am
@Duckhunter,
trading Hossa is an option, though I keep ignoring it for some reason. in cap terms, his deal isn’t too bad, though it will get pretty painful in the last five years or so (unless he “retires” before the contract is up). I wonder if DL would be interested in Hossa at this point, and at what price.
Also, at this point I feel the need to point out that nobody can really ever be over the cap at all, to say nothing of $18MM over. In the summer, you’re allowed a 10% overage, which will translate to $5-6MM. So they’ve got decisions to make sooner rather than later.
DougS Reply:
June 12th, 2010 at 12:19 pm
@Duckhunter, Quisp
Given that Hossa’s cap hit goes up over time, I don’t think DL touches him unless Chicago does something to mitigate that effect (probably something that will lessen the usefulness of dumping Hossa’s contract). Otherwise, his project of keeping the core of the team together over the long term is endangered. In adding veterans to the core group, flexibility will be a key consideration.
54FIGHTING Reply:
June 12th, 2010 at 9:49 am
@Quisp,
Chicago is a mess.
Looking at bonuses I’ve noticed that DD has earned all/most of his ‘A’ bonuses (he’s hit 6 out of 7 of the criteria for them) and I would be surprised if he didn’t also get all of his ‘B’ bonuses as well (if he wins the Norris).
Simmonds and Quick should have received some bonus money this year also.
[Reply]
DougS Reply:
June 12th, 2010 at 12:16 pm
@Quisp,
It’s easy to forget in all the commotion, but your mention of Barker points out that the salary dump has, in fact, already begun. They got an inferior return on Barker, IIRC, and the rationalization was that he was no longer vital to the team. But it’s still a salary dump.
[Reply]
JB Reply:
June 13th, 2010 at 9:09 am
@DougS,
Wow you guys get all jazzed up. Fact is I guess I need to take your statements about people being on your Idiot Charts and teams falling off and adjust them. So in your mind Detroit only getting to 2nd round is related to those deals last summer and not to other issues that may include things like a rookie goalie and injuries. So if they only had those guy they would’ve won the cup?
And a salary dump to me is what Burke did in Toronto. I don’t have time or energy to point out obvious w/ numbers but fact is Chicago will adjust.
Quisp Reply:
June 13th, 2010 at 11:21 am
@JB,
Well, to be fair, the “cap idiots” chart is a feature of my blog and has nothing to do with anyone here, except me. The whole point of the chart, and of calling the teams in question “idiots,” is to point out that GMs ignore the cap at their own peril. I’ll grant you that a couple of teams at the top of the list did a good job of managing their precarious positions last summer; I’m thinking mainly of San Jose, which dumped several smaller salaries rather than any big ones, and Philly, which just stood pat with their LTIR windfall. I predicted, in San Jose’s case, that they would have to make one big move or several small ones, hoping for my own selfish sake that they made the big one I was hoping for, which was sending Marleau our way last summer as opposed to this summer. San Jose opted to keep it all together for one more year, which was either (1) smart, because they managed one more attempt at the cup with their current line-up, or (2) not smart, because now Marleau walks for nothing. San Jose and Chicago were in similar “boats,” in the sense that they both doubled-down with their current rosters, and have similar tasks in front of them this summer, though for slightly different reasons. San Jose’s crossroads is more voluntary, but forced by the UFA statuses of Marleau, Nabokov and Blake (now retired). Chicago’s is pure cap folly.
To answer your question about Detroit: yes, I absolutely think that if they had had Hossa, Samuelsson, Hudler and Kopecky they would have been a better team. But that was not possible, because of the cap (as I predicted), just as Chicago will now have to cut loose 6-9 players at least three of whom have contracts bigger than $3MM.
Of course Chicago will adjust. They have to. That’s the whole point.
I think your general point is that cup-contenders have cap problems by definition because they have to spend to the ceiling. This is true. But what Chicago did is beyond the pale. They would not have had a lesser chance of winning the cup if Tallon hadn’t signed Campbell or Huet to those contracts, or if he had remembered to submit his qualifying offers on time, or if he hadn’t signed Sopel, etc.. That’s the reason they’re in trouble, not because they’re elite. And those mistakes threaten their elite status.
Seriously (well, I don’t know if you’re a Kings fan, but that’s fine either way), imagine if the Kings won the cup, and as a result they had to
(i’m messing with the timeline a bit, but you’ll get the idea)
dump Quick in the minors forever (already having let Bernier go for nothing the year before)
buy out some big UFA signing (say we sign Marleau this year and buy him out in two years)
not re-sign Simmonds, Moller or Clifford.
Trade or buyout Scuderi and Greene.
Keep Schenn in the minors for awhile even though he’s ready because we can’t afford his cap hit.
Let Smyth, Williams, Stoll, Handzus walk as UFAs for minimal to zero return.
But we’d still have Kopitar, brown and Doughty. Good deal right?
[Reply]
JB Reply:
June 14th, 2010 at 4:10 pm
@Quisp, You finally got my point which is yes all cup winners conteneders have cap “issues” because that’s what it takes to get that far. I disagree that Detroit would have gon much farther w/ those guys you mention. I also disagree that Chicago wouldn’t w/o Campbell and Huet. Huet played half the season and got decent numbers. As a Kings fan I would have taken his number if it meant Quick was rested and sharper in playoffs.
Campbell was a decent performer. I agree he’s overpaid but every cup winner has at least one stinky contract. Price of winning.
In fairness I’ll give you my Chicago lineup for next season. It comes out to $58 mil so still flirting w/ cap. I dump Huet and Sopel. I get you needto find someone to take them but I think it can be done. Just depends what Chicago is willing to also part with w/o taking on salary. (Say their #1 draft pick or another prospect?) And I put 4th line spots and the 5/6 D spot down as TBD w/ the 500,000 figure looking at other teams like Detroit, Philly San Jose and what they pay their 4th liners or call ups. I can’t do it and resign Ladd so yeah you lose him but I don’t consider him a major piece. Played big in playoffs but still a role player. I give Niemi what Fluery makes assuming it will also have to be backloaded to escalate at some point. I sign Hjamarlson at $3 which is what guys like Kronwall make. So maybe you can even get him at less.
Hossa 7.9
Sharp 4.1
Kane 6.5
Bolland 3.375
Versteeg 3.083
Buff 3
Toews 6.5
Kopecky 1.2
Brouwer 1.05
TBD 0.5
TBD 0.5
TBD 0.5
Campbell 7.14
Seabrook 3.5
Hjalmarsson 3
Keith 8
TBD 0.5
TBD 0.5
backup goalie 0.5
Niemi 3.5
quisp Reply:
June 14th, 2010 at 8:33 pm
@jb,
I’m looking at your line-up as we speak. Some of your numbers are wrong because you used salary instead of cap hit. Fleury’s cap hit is $5MM by the way, not $3.5MM. I adjusted it downward for you in my calculation. (I don’t think Niemi gets even that much. I had him at $3MM.)
You let Ladd, Eager, Sopel, Huet, Madden, Boynton, Burish, Johnsson (and obviously Barker) go.
The good news is, you managed to keep all of the major pieces, sacrificing only Ladd.
The bad news is, you’re still $4.5MM over the cap. This is due mostly to the bonus cushion penalty imposed on the Hawks from this year’s overage.
Another problem is that your roster is at the minimum of 20, 12 forwards, 6 d and 2 goalies. The problem with this is, if someone gets injured, who do you promote? Calgary got into trouble two seasons ago in a similar circumstance and ended up not being able to dress a full bench. Imagine one of your stars is hurt, the only way to get any replacement funds is to put him on LTIR, which forces him to sit longer than just a game or two. So it’s literally impossible for injured players to take the night off, since no one can replace them, since there’s no cap space.
The $4.5MM overage means (if you ask me), that you still have either two $3MM players to dump or you can buy-out Campbell. At minimum.
Jonathan Toews — $6,300,000
Patrick Kane — $6,300,000
Marian Hossa — $5,275,000
Patrick Sharp — $3,900,000
Dave Bolland — $3,375,000
Kris Versteeg — $3,083,333
Dustin Byfuglien — $3,000,000
Tomas Kopecky — $1,200,000
Troy Brouwer — $1,025,000
Brandon Bollig — $545,000
Jake Dowell — $525,000
Robert Klinkhammer — $500,000
DEFENSEMEN
Brian Campbell — $7,142,875
Duncan Keith — $5,538,462
Brent Seabrook — $3,500,000
* Niklas Hjalmarsson — $2,750,000
Jonathan Carlsson— $565,000
* Jean-Claude Sawyer — $508,000
GOALTENDERS
* Antti Niemi — $3,500,000
Corey Crawford — $800,000
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS
ROSTER SIZE 20
bonus cushion penalty $4,000,000
SALARY CAP $58,800,000
PAYROLL $63,332,670
BONUSES $0
CAP SPACE $-4,532,670
I’d say priority number one is that Drew Doughty has to be re-signed to a long-term deal.
[Reply]
I am enjoying the speculation from the participants on this site. The truth of the matter is that we have no way of knowing who will come, or how they will get here. I think based how DL operates, it is far more likely that our acquisition will come in the form of a trade as opposed to a FA signing. We have enough assets to acquire a good, solid player. I would say that it pretty clear that we will obtain a player with a smaller salary via trade than through free agency.
There are definite areas where upgrading is necessary. We need to strengthen our defense, we need a solid #2 center and we do need some goal scoring, whether that is in the form of a sniper or net-crasher, etc.
Most of us have our preferences in terms of what and who. For me, my #1 would be Patrick Sharp. However unlikely that is, he seems like a really good fit both in terms of ability and salary.
I think it is doubtful that Fro returns, although I do agree with one of the other posters who said that DL would take him back, but only at a salary that makes sense. Re the comment that Fro is sliding in terms of production, I would say that is what happens when you take a first or second line guy who gets lots of PP time, and move him to the third line with decreased PP opportunity. “His production fell off”…well, really? Wonder how that happened. Say what you want about Fro, and we all have ad nauseum, decreased opportunity = less production.
I ultimately want at least a 2nd line forward and a top four D-man this offseason. Whether it comes via trade, FA or callup, we need more offensive production and more stability in the D-zone. I would hope that regardless of what forward we add, hopefully it allows us to put Smyth on the 2nd line, where he seems ideally suited at this point.
Boy, this is going to be a tough few months until hockey starts again.
[Reply]
quisp Reply:
June 11th, 2010 at 10:56 am
@scvking,
Patrick Sharp is not a long shot by any stretch of the imagination. Everyone on the Hawks is available, except Toews, Kane and Keith (and Neimi). Pick your favorites among Ladd, Sharp, Versteeg, Bolland, Byfuglien or Seabrook. At least two and as many as three of them will not be Hawks a year from now, and at least one (probably two) will leave this summer.
Here’s a question. What incentives would have to be thrown in to take on Campbell’s toxic contract?
[Reply]
GoKings09 Reply:
June 11th, 2010 at 11:37 am
@quisp,
If you were DL, what else would you want from Chicago in order to take Campbell and what would you trade back?
[Reply]
quisp Reply:
June 11th, 2010 at 11:56 am
@GoKings09,
His contract is unthinkably long. Keep in mind, I believe there is literally no deal that would be fair that Chicago would want to do. There is pretty much no way to compensate anyone for taking on $7MM of cap hit for six years. However, I’ll take a stab at it.
Campbell, Kane, Byfuglien and a 1st in 2012, for Smyth, Stoll and Williams.
Even then I wouldn’t do it. It’s a lose/lose. Campbell is literally untradeable.
GoKings09 Reply:
June 11th, 2010 at 12:19 pm
@quisp,
That would be tough to take on Campbell’s salary for so long but I think I would do it if they offered that much. We could go with:
Buff-Kopitar-Kane
Richardson-Schenn-Brown
Clifford-Handzus-Simmonds
Lewis-Cliche-Parse
Doughty-Campbell
Johnson-Scuderi
Greene-Muzzin(or other prospect)
Quick and Bernier
or something along those lines which is pretty darn good I think. Buff would replace Smyth’s front of net presence and Kane is obviously huge addition. Campbell helps improve our D because he is one heck of a player even if he is way overpaid. Plus we get another first that we can maybe use to package and move up in the draft.
I don’t think Chicago does this though because I can’t see them losing Kane. I read somehwere they may try to send Campbell down to AHL then bring him up through re-entry waivers so his cap hit and salary would be halved which could work since then they lose half his cap hit and don’t have to pay him and I’m sure there are a lot of teams that would love to have Campbell for $3.5 million or so. Chicago would still be screwed with the cap but I really have no idea how they are going to get under without totally destroying their team so who knows.
QUisp Reply:
June 11th, 2010 at 1:27 pm
@GoKings09,
Yeah, demoting Campbell and then recalling him could work but the savings isn’t as much as buying him out, and also there’s the fact that they couldn’t recall him unless they had the cap space to fit him on the roster, and they will never have that space. The only way they’re getting under the cap (from $14.5MM above the ceiling) is by getting rid of Campbell. They’re not going from $14.5MM above it to $7MM below it).
jet Reply:
June 11th, 2010 at 2:29 pm
@quisp, last summer I thought 4 number 1′s would do it, but now I would take Campbell for 2 number 1′s and Beach. It sounds like he is starting to mature.
[Reply]
Anonymous Reply:
June 11th, 2010 at 2:49 pm
@jet, Beach has matured. You can thank a stable junior franchise, The Spokane Chiefs, for that one.
The guys in the Spokane front office have been there for like 20 years. They know how to discipline kids.
GoKings09 Reply:
June 11th, 2010 at 3:13 pm
@jet,
I definitely wouldn’t do that since Chicago even if they lose lots of pieces isn’t going to totally collapse meaning the draft pick most likely would be middle of the first round at best which is good but not good enough. Adding Campbell’s contract without moving anyone the other way would handcuff us into not making any more moves this offseason and affecting our ability to re-sign Johnson, Doughty, Simmonds, etc next summer and the summers after that.
Probably the only way that I would be willing to take on Campbell’s full cap hit of $7 million for 6 more years is if Kane was included in the deal as Quisp stated above and we send some salary back. Chicago won’t do that and that is why I don’t see him moving.
Campbell is pretty much stuck on CHI and I don’t think they can even bury him in the minors since the NHLPA would be pissed and it would ruin all credibility when trying to sign players since it would be well, we’ll pay you lots and you can be on a good team until we screw up our cap and then you can make the most money in the entire AHL and tear it up against minor leaguers for the rest of your contract. Sound good?
HeyChief Reply:
June 11th, 2010 at 11:56 am
@scvking,
Regarding Fro, it’s a chicken/egg thing. Did his production go down because of reduced pp minutes or did they reduce his pp minutes because his production went down? I believe it’s the latter.
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Dude, I can’t wait for Westgarth! Finally, an enforcer who understands his role, AND actually has a little game. He’ll be one of the best at what he does.
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flex Reply:
June 11th, 2010 at 12:43 pm
westgarth is not nhl player.he is not better than drago.
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VanKingsFan Reply:
June 11th, 2010 at 12:53 pm
@Nyck, Agreed with Flex… if he was any better than Ivan, than he would have been playing this year.
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Sharp- Kopitar- Williams
Smyth- Schenn- Brown
Clifford- Handzus- Simmonds
Clune- Richardson- Parse
Doughty- Scuderi
Johnson- ?
Muzzin- Green
Bernier
Quick
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David Reply:
June 11th, 2010 at 10:41 am
@brandyn, Pretty good line up, but way too much unused cap space.
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Lloyd Christmas Reply:
June 11th, 2010 at 10:54 am
@brandyn,
And Mitchell with JJ.
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VanKingsFan Reply:
June 11th, 2010 at 12:54 pm
@Lloyd Christmas, Nope.. heavily Concussed
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Here’s a THN article about goalies. Maybe the Kings should hang onto Ersberg?
http://www.thehockeynews.com/articles/34011-The-Boylen-Point-Building-from-within-beats-buying-a-free-agent-goalie.html
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I say open the bank for Marleau. He’s versatile can play wing, center and is a two way player. Then Stoll becomes trade bait w/ Schenn or someone else ready in the wings.
I love Richardson but look at Chicago. I put him in the Andrew Ladd, Kopecky category except those guys are proven champs. So no more than $1 mil for Richie if even that high.
That may make next year tight but after that Handzus and Williams are UFA. Smyth’s contract goes down. We have to resign Doughty and Johnson so might lose the latter. But maybe guys like Hickey and Tuebert or others will start moving in by then.
Plus if our goalies stay on track we have some assets there to trade.
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One more note. I do believe we finished 7th in the league in scoring. Not bad at all considering we do not have a true sniper. If we had a sniper, paying him 7-8mil a year, would that have mad a difference for this past season or, would the untimely bad goals Quick let in achieve the same results?
Our problems were defensive lapses and untimely bad goal tending. Hopefully Bernier will take some pressure off of Quick and sign a free agent..Like Plekanec. Sign a stay at home, physical D-men and fill the remaining potential open roster spots from with in.
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Everybody thinks that we can just go and trade for Patrick Sharp. I’m sure a lot of other fans on a lot of other team blogs are thinking just the same, but we’ll have to offer a package that’s better than any of the other clubs are offering. They’re not going to unload Sharp for a middling first-round pick and maybe someone like Moller because I believe that there’s a team or two that will offer a better deal to Chicago. So, for all those people who want Sharp as a Los Angeles King, what are you willing to give up. Williams/Stoll are out of the question, as the “Hawks have cap issues and, if you don’t want them, what makes you think somebody else would?
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DougS Reply:
June 11th, 2010 at 1:44 pm
@deadcatbounce,
That’s entirely true, that there should be a lot of competition for Sharp. But the irony of the situation is that Chicago will not benefit much from a bidding war, because there is a limit to how much value they can receive in return.
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Quisp Reply:
June 11th, 2010 at 9:02 pm
@deadcatbounce,
You’re missing the point though. Whoever Chicago is going to trade, they can’t take salary back, so it’s only picks and prospects. The real asset the trading partner would be sending to Chicago is “cap space.”
No one’s giving up a 1st round pick for Sharp, I don’t think. Could happen, I guess. But I don’t think so. I don’t even know if Sharp will be the guy. Why not Ladd? Bolland? Lots of possibilities.
Anyway, there are certainly a few teams who would like a $4MM player for a prospect or pick or a package of same. But that team has to be willing to give up that amount of cap space for him. In the Kings’ case, that would likely be all they would do in the off-season. You couldn’t make a deal for Sharp and then sign Marleau. Because you’d be adding $10-11MM in cap hit.
Certainly someone will take advantage of Chicago. But whoever does is going to be giving up something valuable: cap space they could use elsewhere.
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The amount of $$ Kovalchuk wants, is seriously anybody gonna offer that much? If he wants to stay in the NHL, he’ll probably have to take 10yrs/$80M. He’s demanding too much in a salary cap league, and the teams that would fit for him already have a lot of $$ invested in other players, making $10M annually a terrible situation.
We don’t want to get caught with the same cap issues the Hawks have. Yes, they won the Cup, but I’d rather the Kings compete for multiple Cups over the next 10 years than win just one and suck for the next 10 years.
The two players I could see are Sharp and Marleau, but it all depends on whether their current teams (CHI and SJ) want to hold on to them. Marleau might not hit the market, but if he does, I think we should pounce.
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VanKingsFan Reply:
June 11th, 2010 at 1:53 pm
@Kevin Y, Last I heard Kovy was offered 14 Million a year in the KHL… not sure if its true or not.
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DougS Reply:
June 11th, 2010 at 2:13 pm
@VanKingsFan,
Yeah, who knows with the KHL.
On the one hand, Moscow Dynamo just went under, so you could make the case that the league is in pretty wobbly shape right now.
Bot on the other, the commissioner made a public boast at the Olympics that they would try to bring Kovy into the fold. And Lord only knows how much money some of those owners really have and how they get it.
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Kevin Y Reply:
June 11th, 2010 at 9:24 pm
@VanKingsFan,
Considering the KHL salaries are tax-free, taking $14M to play in your home country is pretty tough to turn down.
But seriously, this brings up the old question: “what can you buy with $14M that you can’t buy with $8M?”
Don’t be greedy… I’ll gladly take the league minimum salary just to sit on the bench behind Brodeur or Kiprusoff. If you can get even $6M and fame in America, you’d be crazy to tell me you’re disappointed by taking that.
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DougS Reply:
June 11th, 2010 at 2:09 pm
@Kevin Y,
“I’d rather the Kings compete for multiple Cups over the next 10 years than win just one and suck for the next 10 years.”
That makes at least two of us.
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mussin,shenn,cliford may “come in”,but making another
playoff is not enough.we waited to long.
#1 we need trade Brown.This team need true lieder.He is the worse capitain in conference.this team need spirit,speed and strong liedership.
kopi,smith got more potential and it is up coach to use them more smartly.Greene is hard working ,but not smart enough.
So..Brown,Ersberg,Green ..are good package .
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VanKingsFan Reply:
June 11th, 2010 at 1:40 pm
@flex, total nonsense…
How exactly would the coach use them smarter?
What about Brown’s captaincy and leadership don’t you like?
A good package for what?
Where did you learn to spell?
I don’t mind hearing your opinion, but please back it up with something.. anything
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Schoeny Reply:
June 11th, 2010 at 3:28 pm
@flex,
Brownie may be lone ranger on some shifts, but he’s got a great skill set for a 2nd liner. No way we trade him. He’s got a cheap, long term contract and leaves everything on the ice every game. Brownie just needs to spend a month with a shooter tutor and he’ll be an all star.. again.
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It is going to be very interesting to see what the kings do this offseason. Here is my list of things to do if I were Dean Lombardi…
1. I would trade Williams, Stoll, and Ersberg to move into the top 5 in the draft. Then draft either Emerson Etem or Brandon Gormley. Have Brayden Schenn at second line center and your good.
2. Sign a top offensive scorer to accompany Kopitar like Marleau. He can play Center or Wing and we need both right now so he is a win-win. Of course I wouldn’t be upset if we nab Kovalchuck, either.
3. Sign Henrick Tallinder! He would fit perfectly with Doughty. Keith has Seabrook and Doughty will have Tallinder. He brought the absolute best out of Tyler Myers this year and would do the same with Drew. If now Henrick, than get Volchenkov, Hamhuis, or Paul Martin.
If that all works out our lines would be…
Marleau – Kopitar – Simmer
Smyth – Schenn – Brown
Richardson – Handzus – Etem
Parse – Moller – Clune
Doughty – Tallinder
Johnson – Scuderi
Greene – Drewiske
So, What do you guys think?
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VanKingsFan Reply:
June 11th, 2010 at 2:46 pm
@If I was Dean…,
My thoughts,
1. You won’t be able to break into the top 5 by giving up that package. Also Etem should not be a top 5 pick.
2. I agree, but say NO to Kovy unless he comes down to 6.5 Mil. Less than Kopi
3. I can’t see Buffalo letting him go, BUT i do love his game and think he would be a great addition.
Not enough toughness in that lineup I don’t think, especially the 3rd and 4th lines. Sign Upshall and you might be okay.
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If I was Dean... Reply:
June 11th, 2010 at 6:29 pm
Thanks for the comments, man. Henrick Tallinder is a free agent come June 1st and it’s pretty much a 50/50 chance of him being resigned by the Sabres. Personally, I want him to stay with the Sabres because I am from Buffalo, but if he tests the market I hope he comes to my 2nd favorite team, the Kings.
And as for team toughness, Scottie Upshall was resigned by the Coyotes last week (bummer). Other toughguy UFAs are veteran Scott Nicol, former King Adam Mair, pest Matt Cooke, and 4th line goons like Eric Boulton, Jody Shelly, or Dereck Boogard. I can’t see any of them fitting into our lineup except for Cooke.
Anyway, thanks a ton for the comments and I can’t wait to see what happens this offseason. It’ll be interesting to see.
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GoKings09 Reply:
June 11th, 2010 at 3:34 pm
@If I was Dean…,
1)I agree with VanKings that that won’t get us into top 5 and if we did get that high Etem is not the pick there. I like Etem but his value is mid-round(10-20 range or so probably close to 15)
2)I like Marleau too because he could be our top line LW or a 2nd line center if Schenn isn’t ready for that role yet. Kovy I like but at the right price only.
3)If we did sign Tallinder he would probably pair with JJ so we would have Doughty-Scuderi and Tallinder-JJ with a 3rd pairing of Greene-Prospect. I just don’t know if Dean really goes after a UFA defenseman if he thinks kids will be ready soon to take the spots open.
I have no idea what is going to happen because we have a good, young team with cap room so we could be attractive to UFA’s. We also have lots of young pieces that we could move to trade for a good player or just make minimal signings and stand pat for this year and hope young guys help by being better than Jones,Halpern, etc and that core guys like JJ, Doughty, etc improve. Lots of options for DL to consider.
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We are in some unchartered waters here for us Kings fans. I believe we do need to add more scoring, but don’t you all remember being pushed around by Vancouver? We need to add a physical D-man presence. We should make a trade to unload Stoll and Williams. I believe DL can find a team looking for what they can bring to their team and get something cheap in return. Then maybe we can make a better deal to get 1 or more of the CHI players. If we make the back end that much better we will keep the other teams from scoring as much. Better D play will also help our scoring. Spending most of our money on one player will not make us better for the long haul. I want a Cup, but I also want to contend for one every year. There are moves we can make and hopefully DL can see the big picture for now and long term.
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A few responses to some of the topics and comments…
HeyChief- Re the chicken and egg with Frolov, I would agree with you about Frolov getting less opportunities because of a dropoff in production IF Frolov had not started the year on the checking line and the second PP unit. However,he was not put into a position from the outset that was ideal for him to be as productive as he was in prior seasons.
DeadCatBounce- I made a comment that Patrick Sharp was #1 on my wish list of offseason acquisitions. I did not say that it was likely or easy, just that he was my first choice. I also mentioned that many of us have ideas and preferences about who we may be able to acquire. You responded to a few potential Sharp-related comments by saying “Everybody thinks we can just go out and trade for Sharp”. Actually, no one said that. What they are in fact saying is that they would like to see the Kings get him. We all understand that Sharp is a really good player who also had a very strong playoff run. With a collective understanding of the cap problems that the Hawks face, some of us think that Sharp may actually be a commodity that may become available. Now, will he come here? Who knows? And you are correct that he would have many suitors. But, none of think that an acquisition of Sharp would come easily or cheaply, but he would be a great offseason pickup.
quisp- I loved your question about Campbell, and the hypothetical trade. I agree completely with your comments about the toxic contract. I feel that an acquisition of Campbell would quickly put the Kings in the same “salary dump” situation that the Hawks are in. However, I do understand that sometimes a team in the bind the Hawks are in can sometimes get fleeced in a trade. I am not in favor of getting Campbell, his salary is too high and too long, and I just don’t think he is worthy of it anyway. Nor do I think that the hawks will trade either Toews or Kane. But, I am willing to play along with your “what about” idea…
Kings trade-Smyth, Williams and Moeller (approx 10.5 mil)
Hawks trade Campbell, Sharp, Byfuglien, and Brouwer (approx 15 mil).
It won’t happen, nor do I want it to. That is what I would look for hypothetically speaking.
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Heres how the line-up should look like next year…
Marlesu(Kovalchuck) – Kopitar – Williams
Smyth – Schenn – Brown
Richardson – Handzus – Simmonds
Parse(Clifford) – Moller(Loktionov, Cliche) – Clune
Doughty – Scuderi
Johnson – Volchenkov(Sutton)
Greene – Drewiske(Hickey, Voynov)
Also to increase team toughness, Kevin Westgarth could take Clune’s spot. I think the Kings need that top line winger like Kovalchuck or Marleau. Marleau would be the better pick because he could play 1st line LW and 2nd line C if Schenn doesn’t work out. Also we need one more tough, shut down D-man. Volchenkov can block shots with the best of ‘em and Sutton is as tough and punishing as they come. Either one would be a great fit.
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Is there any way the Kings could obtain Scott Hartnell? I liked how he played in the Cup Finals. Is Philly looking to dump salaries? I also thought he had issues with some of his ‘mates (Carter?).
He is in the Ryan Smyth mold, I know. But he could play top-line minutes and Smyth could move down and then he and Brown could free up space for our 2nd line skill player (Loki? Schenn?) Where does that leave Stoll? Just a thought.
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scvking Reply:
June 12th, 2010 at 8:55 pm
@Oliver,
Hartnell??? You must be kidding. Is he good? Yes, he is a pretty good player. BUT, he is also a class A jerk, at least on the ice. A real cheapshot artist and headhunter. Did you watch any of the finals? There is no place in hockey for guys who play the way he does, and certainly not in LA (although maybe the Ducks have a spot for him).
Sorry, Oliver. I don’t mean to be out of line here, but players like Hartnell make me sick.
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I think you can take the following to the bank
1. Bernier won’t be traded and will be in goal for LA
2. EE gets moved
3. Moller will not be in LA…might even be traded
4. No way Marleu or Kovi sign w/Kings unless they really want to play in LA which I don’t see happening.
What I would like to see happen is Williams and Stoll moved to a team that needs to dump salary. My first choice is the Flyers with Carter and Gagne. To get Carter you have to take Gagne and his large salary. Carter is a RFA after next season and Gagne is a FA after next season…throw in Lappy.
Gagne – Kopitar – Simmer
Smyth – Carter – Brown
Richardson – Handzus – Parse
Clune – Lappy – Westgarth
Doughty – FA
Johnson – Scuderi
Greene – Muzzin
Bernier
Quick
$55M salary cap for 2010-11 and leaves $$$ to sign DD, JJ and Simmer to longterm deals that start in 2011-12 when Zues and Gagne contracts run out.
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Agreed on 1 and 2. 3 (Moller), I agree he will spend at least part of the season in the AHL; I hope he isn’t traded. I really think Lombardi has his penciled in a couple of seasons from now, and with our reserve list, there’s no reason not to be patient. (you might be right, though; I hope you’re not.)
#4 (“no way Kovi/Marleau sign here”) — hmm, well. I don’t think Lombardi will offer Kovalchuk what he’s looking for, but I think he would sign here in a second if the money was right. Marleau? That, I can see. I agree there’s a decent chance both players will go elsewhere, but object to “no way.” I think it’s very much an open question.
That’s an interesting Philly/LA trade you’ve got there. Williams and Stoll seem highly vulnerable to a trade, if you ask me. And we know Lombardi likes his Flyers. I don’t know enough about the details of Philly’s cap situation, who they favor, who they want to move, etc., but on the face of it, that sounds like a horrible deal for them. Stranger things have happened, though.
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Barry's Mullet Reply:
June 13th, 2010 at 12:31 pm
@Quisp,
Don’t get me wrong, I would love to see Marleau or Kovi in a Kings uniform…I just don’t see that happening until we make another big acquisition via trade or we make a big run in the playoffs.
And my point on the Philly trade is we are in the unique position to make a deal because we have the room, need players, have prospects to move and are willing to spend $$$. Two or three teams out there don’t really have a choice and will be forced to make horrible deals like the one above just so they can keep their teams intact.
Take my scenero one step further and I promise I’m not smoking crack, but lets say we could make a deal with Chicago but we had to take Huet as part of the deal. So we take Huet and his large salary off their hands, ship Stoll, Williams and prospects to Chicago and they probably give us the keys to the house and let us take our pick of 3 or 4 players….Sharp? Versteeg? Byfuglien? Right now they are so screwed… they have 14 players signed and they are already over the cap with a boat load of RFA to sign. We would have one overpriced veteran back up goalie for two years while Quick or Bernier learn the ropes but we just improved our team with one move.
I just rather add 2 or 3 players than sign ONE player for $8 or $9M with so many other holes we need to fill.
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GoKings09 Reply:
June 13th, 2010 at 1:57 pm
@Barry’s Mullet,
That’s an interesting idea similar to what we went over above with Campbell. I personally prefer the Campbell deal because he could help our D and would actually play while Huet would eat up tons of cap and not play while also pushing one of Quick/Bernier off the team. In order to take Huet or Campbell from them, I would want Kane too, but I just don’t see Chicago doing that and I don’t know if it’s really worth the cap trouble just for Sharp and Versteeg.
Sending Stoll and Williams helps a little with the additional cap but I wouldn’t want to have to add in prospects to take Huet’s horrible contract off their hands. I’d prefer some type of deal like Smyth, Stoll, Williams for Kane, Campbell, Byfuglien because Buff could take Smyth’s spot as the drive the net forward, Campbell could solidify our top 4 on D even if he is overpaid and Kane obviously is awesome. Chicago gets some cap relief and Kings get better without totally screwing their cap up. This deal isn’t perfect I know, just kinda a framework. We could add like Drewiske or another young cheap guy and take on another more expensive contract like Versteeg if they wanted or whatever, but basically I don’t see it working because they would have to include Kane to make it worth it and that won’t happen.
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Quisp Reply:
June 13th, 2010 at 3:22 pm
@GoKings09, @mullet
I just don’t think trading those guys is a better option for Chicago than buying them out.
GoKings09 Reply:
June 14th, 2010 at 10:03 am
@Quisp,
I don’t know. I think buying them out may be the better short term fix, but having those cap hits from the buyouts on the books for so long is worse long term in my opinion.
Trading Campbell for Smyth(not saying either team should do this, just an example) saves Chicago only $1 million this year, but Smyth’s contract is over in 2 years and then they get that additional $6 million in cap space 2 years from now. Simply buying Campbell out saves about $4 million in cap space for next season, but results in a penalty of $2.3 million for the next 12 years!
Perhaps an even better example would be Williams for Campbell since this saves Chicago the same as a buyout would for next year, but in addition they get the $3 million off the books next summer and don’t have to deal with it for the next decade. The length of the contracts for Smyth and Stoll is so much shorter than the buyout penalty would be so it adds even more value to making a trade.
I just can’t see Chicago buying out Campbell(maybe Huet but that would hurt for a while too) because it would leave them with cap issues for the next decade. Then again, its not like Chicago’s management has ever sacrificed long-term to better the short term, right? Oh yeah, that signing Hossa and going into your madness cushion last summer that got them into this mess in the first place. Ok, I agree with you now they probably go the buyout method and spend the next 4 years with buyout penalties of $4 million for the next 4 years and then $2.3 million for 8 years after that.
Anonymous Reply:
June 14th, 2010 at 9:20 am
@Quisp,
I don’t know. In terms of this upcoming season then yes, I think buying them out would be better than trading since a trade forces salary back(since no team wants Huet or Campbell without at least dumping some salary back). Trades do bring back multiple players that can help fill out the roster even though they probably need cheaper players to do that.
The big issue I think is that the buyouts are for so long. For example, if they traded Campbell to us for Smyth(not saying this is going to happen, just for my example) then they only save $1 million or so this year which is not so good. If they buy Campbell out it saves $4.7 million which is much better. However, Smyth’s contract would only be for next year and the year after, and then be gone so they would get an additional $6 million off the cap hit while a buyout of Campbell is still a cap hit of $2.3 million for the next 12 years! Perhaps a better example would even be Williams because then they save $4 million in cap space this year and an additional 3 next summer so the value is even higher for them.
I just can’t see them buying out Campbell(maybe Huet but that would hurt too) because it would help short-term, but cripple them for the next decade with the cap. Then again, its not like Chicago’s management has ever been short sighted and screwed themselves by mismanaging the cap long-term because it is better for them short-term, right?
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GoKings09 Reply:
June 14th, 2010 at 12:01 pm
@,
sorry for the double post, the first time I forgot to put the name and thought it didn’t work so I posted it again.
yes, but why would any team take on campbell’s contract? what is he really worth? $4MM? Probably. So a team that is interested in Campbell in the abstract would need to be compensated $3MM/year for six years.
not considered campbell’s contract for a moment, Campbell for Stoll and a medium pick would be fair. But then you have to think of that extra $3MM+ in cap hit for six years as SIX YEARS OF $3MM+ in cap relief the trading partner is dealing to Chicago; actually that’s $7MM for the last four years. What is two years of $3MM and 4 years of $7MM in cap relief worth?
I think it’s worth more than Chicago is willing to pay. I think it’s worth more than the cost of buying out Campbell, which is why I think Chicago will do that before they are willing to offer compensation that I as an armchair GM would accept.
That’s cap space the Kings need. ESPECIALLY three to six years from now.
And since that’s the way it is for most teams — i.e. every team has to decide which one or two players they are going to pay that kind of money — I would be surprised if there was any GM that would be willing to sacrifice his entire franchise’s future for Brian f-ing Campbell.
Is there a team out there with similarly toxic contracts they can’t use and could swap with Chicago? I can see Chicago taking back two bad contracts for their one bad contract. But that doesn’t really give Chicago the relief they need.
The more I think about it, I just don’t think there’s any package I would be willing to give up to take Campbell on.
Because cap space is the most important asset in this whole equation.
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GoKings09 Reply:
June 14th, 2010 at 12:11 pm
@quisp,
That’s true. I guess it just comes down to what is all that cap space worth? If we could get Kane, Versteeg, Byfuglien and a pick while sending salary back with Smyth, Williams, Stoll then I would be very tempted to do it because Campbell is a good player with a horrible contract. Buffy can take Smyth’s role, Versteeg can kind of replace Fro and we get Kane. Like you said though the cost is years of dealing with Campbell and the cap so maybe Chicago throws in a few first rounders too. The big question this summer with all the GM’s is going to be what is that cap space really worth? I can’t see Chicago really trading him because I think pretty much any team would want to get Kane, Keith, Toews with him to make it worth it and those guys aren’t moving I don’t think. Maybe some team near the cap floor like NYI would take him on for lots of draft picks and some other pieces. I just have no idea what Chicago can really do to get out of this because buyouts just leave them in further trouble when 10 years down the line they are still hurt by the cap and Campbell’s buyout.
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quisp Reply:
June 14th, 2010 at 3:21 pm
@GoKings09,
Yeah, but Kane+Versteeg+Byfuglien+Campbell = $20MM+ cap hit.
Smyth+Stoll+Williams = $13MM cap hit for two more years (ish).
I can see where you’re going with that, but the numbers three years from now would be deadly. Because we’d still have the $14MM of Kane/Campbell, presumably would have re-signed Byfuglien next summer (or what’s the point), so that’s $18MM.
Kopitar 6.8, Brown 3ish, simmonds 3, doughty 7, johnson 3, greene 3ish, scuderi 4, bernikwik 5, (i know those numbers are slightly off, but I’m going from memory…) that’s $55MM for 12 guys.
That’s a worse situation than Chicago’s in now! Unless the cap goes up another 5-7MM in that time. Which, eh, that’s a big risk.
This is part of the problem, you pour on all those incentives in order to get someone to bite, and the team that would bite can’t bite because it doesn’t have room for all the incentives.
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Barry's Mullet Reply:
June 14th, 2010 at 12:12 pm
@quisp,
I almost didn’t post my original thought about Huet thinking no one would get it but nice to see others are on the same page.
From what I’m reading it sounds like Chicago will keep Campbell because of his performance in the playoffs and they need a player of his caliber. Also NO way anyone takes on that contract for $7.1M for each of the next 6 seasons and they can’t buy him out….they’re stuck with him!
Huet on the other hand they can buy out but he would be on their books for 4 years? and they still don’t have enough to sign all their RFA and UFA.
My preference would be to keep Smyth (I think his play and leadership is still needed) and trade Stoll, gives Chicago a solid center at $3.6 with two years remaining, and Williams at $3.5 with only ONE year remaining on his. Chicago saves $6M this season and $10M next to sign all their FA.
For us were adding less than $7M but we just picked up Sharp, Versteeg and an Eager, Ladd or Burish and an overpriced goalie for two years and still have money to lock up DD,JJ and Simmer. Who knows, Huet may give us just what we need. And who’s to say we don’t buyout the last year of Huets contract.
None of this is going to happen but I do believe more than A few GM’s are thinking something similar.
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scvking Reply:
June 14th, 2010 at 12:24 pm
@quisp,
You have found that the real problem with Campbell’s contract is two-fold; first, it is just way too much $ per year; second, it is way too long. Trying to dump a short, expensive contract is one thing, but trying to dump an expensive, long term contract makes is virtually impossible to trade it. Face it, the Hawks are stuck with that deal, and have to decide whether to live with it, dump other players and salary, or buy him out. No team, I don’t believe, is going to be stupid enough to do 2 things; first, take a terrible contract, and second, help the Hawks out of their awful situation. Why would any team handcuff themselves by taking on that contract? Taking that contract off their hands virtually ensures that the Hawks will return as a serious Cup contender for years. Plus, it is not like the Hawks are saying, take a Heatley or a Gaborik off our hands with a big contract. As you said, it is Campbell! No way a trade is worked out. And I will not be happy if anyone comes to their rescue.
[Reply]
quisp Reply:
June 14th, 2010 at 3:23 pm
@scvking,
it’s a choice between campbell or doughty, basically. or campbell and kopitar. or campbell and brown and johnson. something’s gotta give.
as chicago is now learning.
[Reply]
Why would anyone ever argue with Quisp?
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