Going back to the Frolov situation — it was fun taking a break for a couple hours, right? — Terry Murray talked today about benching players, and star players in particular, and what he tries to accomplish when he does it. It’s less about Frolov and more about Murray’s philosophy in these situations, although at the end he does talk about whether Frolov was unhappy in his role…
Question: In your past coaching stops, have you benched a player of that caliber before?
MURRAY: “I have. Yes, I have.”
Question: Do you remember who?
MURRAY: “Well, yes I can remember. I don’t want to get into names, necessarily, but it has happened. It happened with important players. It happened with key players on teams, yes. And again, I’m not trying to butt heads with anybody. I’m trying to get players to be the best they can be, and I’m trying to put demands on players, that this is what the L.A. Kings need to do in order to be succesful. I’ve always believed, as I already mentioned, that no one is bigger than the team. This is about 23 guys buying in, being on (the same) page and working hard for each other and looking at each other in the eye, after the game is over, and saying, `I did my best out there for you tonight.’ And I’ve got to have that, or we’re taking a big step backward. That’s the only reason I would take a good player out, because I need more.”
Question: In the past, did it get the results you hoped for, or does it vary from case to case?
MURRAY: “You always get a big push right away. The player gets back in and wants to prove to himself, to his teammates, to the team, that, `Yeah, I’m ready to play,’ and has solid performances over the next half a dozen games. Sometimes there’s another little step backward, where you need to have a little meeting to remind the player of, `Hey, remember the commitment we talked about? Let’s get back on page here and get going again.’ Sometimes there’s some habits, sometimes stuff happens that a player is not even aware of. As a player, I needed to have people talk to me sometimes, and tell me I needed to get my butt in gear and get going again. So that’s just part of the process of bringing talent out of a very talented player.”
Question: Do you expect that message to come from the locker room as well? Is it up to Brown or other veterans to say, “You have to step up or step off”?
MURRAY: “No, I don’t really expect that. I don’t think that’s their responsibility, to get other players going. In general, the leadership group, captains (say), `We need this one here, guys.’ Maybe sometimes you go over and talk to an individual and say, `Hey, how about seven or eight shots on net here tonight?’ or `We need some big hits from you here tonight,’ that kind of encouragement. But it’s not their responsibility to motivate the individual player. That’s the coach’s responsibility, but that’s an individual player’s responsibility too. You, as a player sitting in the locker room, you know your commitment to the teammates and know what you have to do in order to play the game. So, motivating is an inward thing also.”
Question: Did you get a sense that Fro was unhappy with his previous role, or are these line changes independent of that?
MURRAY: “I think it’s independent of that. I sat down at the start of the year, in training camp, and reviewed the roles with Fro, and what my expectations were. This is a huge year for Fro, too, and I’ve said this to him, going back before the season started. This is his contract year. It’s a big year, an important year. I want him to have success. He’s on a line with Zeus.
“In that role of playing against the top lines of the opposing team, you’re getting a lot of minutes, you’re the second-most minutes on the team, probably, outside of the top line, and you’re going to have the puck a lot if you do the right stuff on the checking side of it. You’re going to have great scoring opportunities. There was no problem, at that time, with the role that I was reading. I just hope that things work out, and that he finds himself here right now, because he’s a very important part of his team.”
Would Murray consider benching himself after a poorly coached game? I guess that’s Deano’s job.
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Now that you’re working for the Kings and an employee of the NHL. does that mean you’re required to participate in drug testing, because I swear Hammond, you must be on CRACK to think it’s OK to be takin’ 2 hour breaks in your 1st month in a new job.
All kidding aside, Now I haven’t gone back to check, but didn’t Quispy’s mention some stats that indicate that Fro’s line was NOT playing against the top line? Yet TM says they were. I could be completely missing something here and probably am, but it just dawned on me when I read TM’s statement about Fro playing against the top lines of the opposite team. (Post Confused Smiley HERE)
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From the games this year, at home the Fro line played against the best line from each team because the Kings got last change. Easy to get the match up. On the road it is so much tougher to get that match up.
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Rainman,
Based on what Murray said in this post and numerous others in the past few days, an indifferent or poor effort might merit a benching, not a poor performance.
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There are some things you can’t teach. You can not teach heart. That is true in every facet of life. You can’t teach effort. That is learned at a very young age. Can anyone think of a similarly talented player who was benched and then turned it around long term. I can’t.
I think the Kings are either going to have to live with a very talented player who under-performs or they are going to have to cut bait, let him go in FA and sign a FA who has both the ethic and the skill. I hope I’m wrong about Fro. I really like him but I just have a bad feeling that he’s not going to change. Lack of effort will kill the culture TM and DL et al are trying to build.
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Fortunato> I remember Luc getting benched and he’s going to the hall of fame
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Is it possible for AF to carry simmonds and ‘zus on his back? Apparently so from the kool-aid crowd. Simmonds can’t skate, pass and is one of the worst players in the league when it comes to playing without the puck. When was the last time simmonds gave a great scoring pass opp to Fro?
Most of the kool-aid crowd were besides themselves with simmonds and purcell vs b talent in the pre-season. What have they done?
maybe we should trade tm and ddm for Lacroix. Maybe then the great one might want to come back to his once beloved Kings.
If frolov plays well the kool crowd will be posting what a genius tm is.
The kings don’t want to pay him. They are just setting up the scenario to get rid of him and deflect the heat.
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Cynic -
I did put a big asterisk next to the QUALCOMP numbers (not in the last thread, but a few games ago, when we first started talking about this season’s numbers) to indicate that it’s entirely possible that a small data set will throw the numbers off. Early on — for example — it occurred to me that if the number one line of a team is consistently shut-down over a series of games, their own numbers are going to suck, and as a result it might look like the other team’s checking lines are NOT playing tough minutes because the #1 line is getting shut down, so they’re not appearing in the stats as a #1 line according to the numbers. After all, we don’t call a number one line #1 because their numbers are the best at the moment. We call them the #1 line because they’re supposed to be the big stars/scorers and that’s what they’re paid to do.
Here’s a specific hypothetical:
Let’s say our #1 line (Smyth/Kopi/Williams) plays the first ten games of the season and is completely shut down by every team they play. Let’s also say they get matched against the checking line of opponent after opponent. The Kopi line will therefore have a terrible “rating” (plus/minus relative to team). As a result, the checking lines who shut them down will get a deceptively low QUALCOMP number, because it will appear that they were playing against not very good competition, because QUALCOMP uses the rating numbers to calculate relative values of opponents’ quality.
So the Kopitar line, in this hypothetical, would look in the stats like an easy opponent, when in fact they would still be the #1 line and would still draw the checking lines of opponents. This is because the QUALCOMP calculation doesn’t know who the players are, only how well they’re doing THIS SEASON.
For that reason, it’s possible (in theory) for the QUALCOMP numbers to distort early on. But obviously it all comes out in the wash, since over time the most difficult players to play against will have a higher +/- relative to team.
Murray may be entirely accurate in terms of how he’s matching lines. Or he may be pulling a fast one by quietly switching the assignments of the second and third lines. That strikes me as slightly far fetched and a little bit of evil genius brilliant. Or the sample may be too small to get an accurate read on the quality of competition from the numbers. As of now, the numbers do indicate that Frolov in particular is getting a much easier opponent than last year, when he led all Kings forwards in QUALCOMP (followed closely by Handzus and Simmonds), and Stoll and Purcell are getting a much higher quality opponent than last year, when they were among the lowest in QUALCOMP.
Of all the numbers I quoted in the last thread, the QUALCOMP data is the most suspect early in the season, in my opinion. The others, plus-minus per 60 minutes of 5on5, and all its variations, are more water-tight.
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Cynic -
I just read the Murray comments on the new lines, and I found it telling that he totally backs off calling the Stoll line (now the third line) the “checking” line. So I will stick to my observation that it’s much more fluid than it appears to be.
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If Murray was in charge of the Dodgers,how would he handle a player(Ramirez)taking a shower before the end of a game????
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Big Sleazy Fan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAOxY_nHdew&feature=related
From the Kool Aid Crowd, enjoy and please have a sense of humor about it.
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Brett Hull has been a healthy scratch as a Blue, a Star, and a Red Wing. Chris Drury was a healthy scratch on Sept 26, 2009 …Jason Blake was a healthy scratch twice last season … Dustin Penner was a healthy scratch last season … that based on about 5 minutes on the internet. Fortunato, your opinions are one thing; but you might want to back them up with actual facts. Great players have been healthy scratches for many, many years for the very reason TM did it to Frolov. It is as much about Frolov’s play as it is about sending a message to the team. If Frolov can be benched, then so can I.
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Question: In your past coaching stops, have you benched a player of that caliber before?
MURRAY: “I have. Yes, I have.”
Question: Do you remember who?
Answer:
Janne Niinimaa http://www.lcshockey.com/issues/59/feature3.asp
Eric Lindros
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1208/is_n8_v219/ai_16523891/
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Frolov is being made an example of by a coach who has no clue what his player is about for things that all of the players do. The comments that Murray made previously sent very different messages than those in this interview. He needs to get a better command of the English language or keep his mouth shut and stop blaming his players for his coaching shortcomings.
I may have missed them, but I haven’t seen any comments about several ill-advised passes across ice in the last game that were made by Simmonds. I guess that’s because he was lucky enough to not have as high a caliber player, quick enough to pick it off, as the one by Frolov so they didn’t result in a goal. I’m not dumping on Simmonds here. I’m contrasting the same passing decisions made by most players relative to the opposition players’ luck and abilities to get to the puck faster than others. Bad decisions are made by every player and making an example of Frolov in this case was uncalled for. Did he give him any praise for all of the great puck protection and handling down low? Any allowance that he was out there playing while he was sick? Nothing like kicking a player while he is down. Use the illnes as a reason for the benching and keep the other stuff for another time if necessary. But that would require a good coach to recognize that.
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I would guess that Simmonds wasn’t benched because:
1) TM liked his effort
2) Simmonds is starting his 2nd year, not his 7th, so expectations are different
3) Simmonds has not been repeatedly asked to bring more effort and emotion to his game without a notable response
4) Simmonds was most likely visably upset, angry, or otherwise not happy with his own play, and so nothing more needed to be said or done – as opposed to laughing on the bench
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My first concern at the start of the season was Fro on that line. I’m not surprised he’s not “producing” (but I thought he was doing a good job, at least up until Columbus.) I’m not surprise he’s sulking (if that’s what’s going on.) He’s got Zeus and Brownie now, so let’s see how that works out.
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Hey Q-
I’m not so familiar with the QUALCOMP numbers adn I remember you mentioning they are sketchy early in the year. Your hypothetical was real good in solving my confusion. Thanks for that. A lot to read when you first wake up in the morning. Snoke was coming out the ears.
Della – That was beautiful. (Tear rolling down cheek)
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Guys the laughing on the bench thing is WAY overplayed. Anyone who’s played hockey or any sport for that matter knows that there’s a lot of banter going on when you’re off shift. Someone could have said something funny and even if he wasn’t happy he would have laughed. I seriously doubt anyone is happy they gave away a puck like that.
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Well put Choralone.
24diving – Darn rights he’s being made an expample of and as he should be. If you’re going to be lazy you’re going to sit. Simmonds works his butt off every shift…you can’t say that about Fro.
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That’s exactly it choralone.
Until Frolov actually shows that he gives a rat poop about his team, his teammates and his own game performance…well…he should never step foot on the ice again wearing a King uniform.
This game is more than goals and assists, and for those who have never played and don’t know this, well…I don’t know what to say to you.
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I look forward to the invention of the Heart-o-meter, so we can finally get an objective measure of this Frolov soul-assessment issue. Nah, endless rounds of subjective I Know He Doesn’t Care/Oh Yes He Does arguments are more fun.
It might be smoothed over for now, but I don’t see a way out of this endless cycle other than a trade. It breaks my heart, but maybe it’s time to let the Kings be the Kings, and let Fro be Fro. I love them both, but a separation would seem like a relief for all involved at this point. He could go to a team with a different style, and we will try to fall back on our plethora of other 30 goal scorers as best we can. Ha, ha. Well, my 25 years of fandom have imbued me with patience. Wait till three years!
I don’t think this is going away. Even if he gets on a hot streak, the minute it stops, the management is always going to think it’s the “not trying/not a team player” thing that’s holding the real, hidden, fifty-goal-scoring Frolov back. From this blowup it seems evident to me that he has always been and is always going to be looked at as a frustration, not an asset. But if they feel at the end of their rope just ten games in, it’s long since past time he was traded. No need to keep cranking the drama dial up to eleven. Maybe last year, since he was their leading scorer in spite of their frustration, they had a “Can’t live with you, can’t live without you” love-hate tango going on. Maybe they hate to need him as much as they do. It will suck if we get next to nothing for him in return, but let’s end it.
The thing is, I appreciate the Smyth type of player as well as the quiet but skilled type. DL is clearly saying “The Smyth type is our future!” and has been tepid at best about Frolov’s role in the shape of things to come. I understand heart is important, and I’m fully behind changing the culture, and turning our noses up at Heatley et al when they come on the market, yadda yadda, but a little voice keeps whispering in my head: “You know, goals are nice too.” My secret dread is that we’ll follow the plan and wind up with a team that outhustles and outworks its opponents every night but still doesn’t manage a win. Face it, not many Kings are heart-filled goal scorers like Smyth right now. Fingers crossed we get more of them.
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Fro is gone i would bet the house on it DL takes the position my way or the highway look at all the players gone under him who did not agree with his offers i was worried another great defenseman was gone over the summer but he did sign whew !!!! Fro and DL did not agree on a contract he is an unrestricted free agent
so happy trails only one problem DL waited too long now Fro gets you nothing where as last year heatley was in the deal When dose Dl go Look at San jose it speaks for itself a one rounder !!!!
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Dan H
I don’t mind players laughing on the bench, it’s a fun game and players tend to play better when they remember that. The problem is that it was on camera, right after a goal, in a tight game, when the Kings were obviously not playing well.
The issue with Frolov is that he is, with the possible exception of Kopitar and Doughty, the single most talented player on this team and has never (seemingly – from the outside) had the attitude to match. He is in the prime 4 – 6 years of his career where he should be making a push to be a top tier player, and instead he is constantly passed by players with inferior talent but much higher drive to be successful.
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DellaNooch,
I thought Rich outlined the groundrules for this site very well, especially the part about chastising other fans viewpoints.
Where is the humor in your clever little YouTube video? If that’s not a personal attack on “Big Sleazy Fan” (BSF) then I’d hate to see one.
I would agree with BSF’s assessment that the Kings (AEG) don’t want to pay Frolov and are laying the groundwork to get rid of him.
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I love Fro, but on occasion he turns into his alter-ego Froloaf. A few years ago Luc got benched and although unhappy he came back strong as a leader should be.
Fro needs to stop the cross ice passes and start firing the puck on net. He’s so good with the puck down low and on PK in the other teams’ zone.
C’mon 24…we need you!
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Rainman…
Della meant no harm. It’s all in fun I’m sure. Gotta have some humor at this site or our brains will explode from all the info we get daily.
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Della-Nice!
Just so you know I get equally confused after reading the tri kool aiders posts!like this chick:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=io8Fs34JWxk&feature=fvw
The humor was well timed but no correlation.
Rainman-Thanks for the prop. I got your back!
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24Diving-Nice!
RJC76 says:
Simmonds works his butt off every shift…you can’t say that about Fro.
Well said about Simmonds. He has to work hard as he looks like a weeble on skates. Spends a lot of energy tryng not to fall.
Speaking about Simmonds anyone have a nickname for him?
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