Anze Kopitar, Ryan Smyth and Justin Williams have nine goals and 14 assists (including power-play time).
Dustin Brown, Teddy Purcell and Jarret Stoll have two goals (both from Purcell) and eight assists.
Is that a problem for the Kings? The first line is scoring at an amazing rate right now, but that is bound to even out at some point. Will secondary scoring be an issue for the Kings?
Terry Murray said he liked the play of the second line, and pointed to the number of chances. And it’s true that Brown, Purcell and Stoll combined for 10 of the Kings’ 22 shots Monday, and the line was on the ice when Drew Doughty scored his third-period goal, as Stoll made the strong cross-ice pass that led to Doughty’s slap shot. Then again, to argue the counter-argument (or something like that), those shots need to start going in at some point, right?
Here’s what Murray said today about the second line…
MURRAY: “I really like what the second line is doing, talking about Stoll’s line. They generated some real good stuff (against the Islanders). The puck didn’t end up in the net, but Brownie had chances, Purcell came down and made some real nice plays off that left-wing side, shooting the puck and making nice passes to the middle-lane drive guy, both Stoll and Brown at different. The concept and the structure is there, and they’ve got a pretty good feel for each other out there. If they keep doing what they did last night on the offensive part of it, they’ll put numbers up.”
Wow. Seventh:
http://msn.foxsports.com/nhl/powerRankings
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to me… Stoll is not doing enough… sure,,, he has fluries of good play… just like Kyle Calder did… but Kyle Calder is not the type of player i want to see the 2nd Line Center resembling… i think we can do much better than Stoll… and have a 2nd line center with out arthritis… aka Moller… hell, try Lewis up there for a little while… Schenn…
how much longer is Stoll under contract for… 2 more years?
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I like this line. I agree, if they keep putting up shots, they will eventually go in. I will say this tho…Brownie needs to capitalize on some of his chances if the kings are going to make the playoffs! Purcell is playing well, the way the staff wants him to, strong along the boards. Stoll is being his usual self…faceoffs are improving, but he seems to be shying away from some hits IMO.
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I think the Fro-Zeus-Simmonds line is generating more chances that the “2nd line” right now. They’re looking really good.
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I think the “2nd line” is looking better every game. One thing I think happened is that they’re chemistry isn’t up there with the 1st and 3rd yet because Stoll missed the early part of training camp. It will come though if they keep playing together. They’re finding each other a lot more out there than they did the 1st game
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The Kings would be that much better if the second line could start scoring consistantly. The first line is fantastic right now, but I was thinking the other day, what happens if somebody gets injured on that first line(god forbid). What happens then? Hopefully line #2 starts clicking. I love the 3rd line, and they are out there enough to put up some points as well.
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I think it is still to early to worry. But if things stay the same much longer they should conside swapping Fro and Brown. You need a second line scoring and Fro is the leader in that department.
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I agree with TM. The pucks will start going in for them. Right now they don’t need to score as much because Kopi’s line is insane. But when the time comes, it will happen for them.
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I think this is a good time to start praising Teddy Purcell again. Even though Stoll is technically the center on this line, Purcell’s the one directing the offense on it. After the first game, he’s become almost a completely different player. Not only is he doing his job by getting open to get shots and fighting hard along the boards to get control of the puck, but he’s also carrying the play in the offensive zone once he gets the puck. He’s really close to becoming the offensive force we were all expecting when he led the AHL in scoring his first year there.
In terms of the second line in general, I think they’re doing a good job, but Brownie has to make his presence known a little better outside of hitting. At least he’s doing that, and it’s often leading to offensive chances, but we expect more from him. Stoll’s doing about as well as could be expected as a small-ish center. No one expects him to score 30 goals. I’ll be happy as long as he keeps making passes like the one he made to Doughty yesterday.
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The second line to me anyway seems to be spending to much time defending rather than putting shots on the net.
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I am not real happy with this line. None of these guys are true second line players – with the possible exception of Brown. I would rather see Schenn/Moller with Brown and Frolov.
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I don’t know what the issue is with the second line.
Frolov, Zues, Simmonds are doing fine. They are the second line, right? At least it appears that they are.
The problem with the Brown, Stoll, Purcell line is that Stoll is not a top six forward. He doesn’t have the offensive firepower to carry that line. The other issue is that Brown does not have the ability to carry a line by himself. He excels when he has a strong complimentary player that is his equal on the line.
This line will only put up third line numbers this year.
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I agree that the fro-zeus-simmonds line has looked more like a second line. About the second line, can’t say they’ve played bad but they’ve been inconsistent between good and average… Good at times but nothing remarkable the rest of the time. 10 points in 5 games isn’t that bad but we also need to take into account that 3 of those 5 games were offensive high scoring games…
not worried at this point. I just hope TM doesn’t start juggling lines and messing around at the first hint of a problem. I like the way the team is now… No need to start screwing around as soon as we lose 1 game etc
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I’m hope by now everyone realizes that the Kings have TWO second lines. I think both lines are solid and like the Wings and other elite teams are equally dangerous and have the potential to put the puck in the net. Teams can no longer just concentrate on the #1 line which is why they are getting so many good chances.
Let me add that if Stoll continues to struggle on face off’s I’m not opposed to making a move, i.e. Moller or Lewis. To me the 4th line seems to be the weakest which it should be. Harrold seems to get knocked off the puck fairly easy and Richardson is definitely not a checker, he spends more time swimming on the ice than anyone. That leaves Ivanans who to this point is the best player on that line which says it all….we need Clune back ASAP.
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Secondary scoring from everyone else on the team is what currently worries me. Yeah, the top line is red hot. What happens when they cool off? If some other guys don’t start putting the puck in the net, this team will gon on an ugly streak.
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I think the 2nd line is doing great personally. Sure, they may not have the goals but from watching a majority of the games so far, they are playing hard and playing in very important moments in the game.
The goals will come. Stay tuned.
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I watched Brown miss another opportunity to pass the puck against the Islanders the other day to Stoll. It’s a tunnel vision thing, I’m almost certain. That’s going to end up being very frustrating down the road here is vision isn’t expanded.
Stoll is overpaid (IMHO) for what he does and his abilities. 2 or 2.5 I’m good with, but 4Mil? Handzus is earning his 4 and he pretty much does it all: Faceoffs, cycle on the forecheck, block shots, score, he’s a complete player. Stoll is nowhere near as good as Zeus. The reason he’s on the 2nd line is because we can’t move Zeus off the third as it’s doing so well. I really see our 3rd line as our 2nd and they are playing like it. To answer Rich’s question, I see our secondary scoring coming from them rather than Purcell-Stoll-Brown.
Stoll has the ability to get better and his play is improving, but I still don’t think he’ll ever be better than Zeus at center overall, therefore he’s not worth the 4mil. If he could develop his playmaking skills more and make sauce passes like he did to Purcell against St.Louis more often, that line will be much more dangerous. Problem is, unless all three start scoring, that line will become ‘Predictable’ and be easier to defend.
Guess we’ll see.
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The things which carry hockey teams during offensive slumps are:
1-3): Goaltending, goaltending. Did I say, goaltending? After a rough first game, Quicker is getting it together. No problem here.
4): Even-level, consistent energy/ puck pursuit, battles in the corner, face-offs, play in front of the net. Again, after a rough start, the team is leveling out into more smooth perfomances. Goals are fine, but talk to the Flames–they don’t always win.
5): Preparation. Good teams are prepared, mentally and physically. They can play on the road, in close 1-goal games, in wild shootouts, and can dominate at home. The Kings are young; inconsistency will likely be a problem.
6): Health/depth: yet to be tested, and my biggest fear.
All teams have hot streaks and cold streaks during the season. Each team deals with that differently. What the Kings have shown so far, so early, is that they can hang 5-on-5.
This is why they play the games. We shall find out, say, by January…
I’m very hopeful.
4
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Second line is doing enough, but Purcell/Stoll/Brown isn’t the second line. http://wp.me/ptucv-D6
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Question is, Quispie–
Which line is the shut-down line?
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After reading your article, Quispie, let me re-phrase the question:
Does your second line HAVE to outscore your third line?
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Oh, and one more question:
Does our second line this year have as many goals as our FIRST line had last year, at five games?
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Um…people…Stoll is still in training camp…hello??? McFly??? Is this thing on???
Seriously…the man sat out almost all of training camp hurt, and you want him to have instant timing and be great right from the get go. Sorry, will never happen that way.
I’ve said it numerous times. WE ARE 5 GAMES INTO THE SEASON.
Everyone take a deep, long breath. After 10-15 games, if things aren’t clicking still, THEN, you can take a look and see what you can do.
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the 2nd line generates a lot of shots but i think there is a problem in accuracy. especially brown misses too many shots in what i have noticed starting from last year. he shoots a lot but the placement of is key too. in the islanders game he may have missed 4-5 shots to the net. in the blues game their might have been a couple of rushes with him and purcell that he opted to shoot that was right to the body of the goalie and more like than not, those wont have any rebounds. its really just technique and maybe change of sticks … who knows, but basically this line has enough talent to not be able to rack up goals.
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I agree with Irish Pat re: the 3rd line. They were flying last nite against the Islanders. And 2nd line looked invisible.
But it is only the 5th game, let the 2nd line get the chemistry going that the 1st and 3rd line already have shown.
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As Quisp (among others) has pointed out, the Kings’ designation of lines is a little arbitrary. Murray’s plan seems to be to cultivate depth, to have three solid lines that you can put out there without anxiety, with maybe one being a greater scoring threat than the others.
Another reason why it seems kind of fussy to me to be worrying about secondary scoring at this point is that the Kings just won two consecutive road games 2-1. If you can win close, low-scoring games, you’ve proven that you can get away without secondary scoring at least once in a while. The point is to win, not so much how you win; and as BakoC says, if your goaltending is good enough/hot enough, secondary scoring is not so much of an issue.
Third reason why I’m not worried about secondary scoring right now: We’re 5 games in. That’s less than 1/16 of the regular season. I don’t have much of a head for numbers, but even I know that’s a small sample size.
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quisp…
nice article…i appreciate the theory…
but…
i don’t really think t.m. is pulling the ol’ switcharoo…one thing that the stats cannot attribute for is the home ice line-change advantage and i wonder how many “crossover” shifts have been because of this…i remember a few off the top of my head and coupled w/the small sample of games we have had and the fact that other teams might be jugglin’ a bit (since we have had the lead during games) might dictate match up tweaks…
but just looking at the first 5 games and the line flow t.m. has implemented, i must say i’m pleasantly surprised he has remained consistent in keeping most lines intact…the fourth line towards the end of the game is becoming a “reward” line – coupling one or two regulars with a player who’s on top of their game…
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Just like with the PK situation, I’m not terribly worried about the “second” line (Brownie-Stollie-Purse). Considering how well they played as a group against the Isles, I believe the goals will start coming soon. We’re only at game 6.
I’d love to see Brownie net a few and get his scoring on track. With due respect to Brownie, who I think is a very solid player in general, he needs to stop with the goofy spinning crud. This was something I saw him do countless times last season and I’m not really sure what that’s all about. He’s a fine skater so I don’t know what he’s trying to prove by doing that. In my opinion he should get back to straight-up plastering the other team and potting some pucks.
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Seems like the competition is starting to get a little smarter. Jim Fox is supposed to make regular contributions to the LA Times sports page now:
http://tinyurl.com/yh5fgg2
One line that jumped out at me, because it pretty much echoes what I’ve been thinking, and it’s apropos to this discussion: Talking about the bad defensive stats and such, Foxie says, “Finding a way to win is the important thing, regardless of what the numbers say.”
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Well, it’s nice to worry about secondary scoring, but keep in mind there are exactly two teams in the league with higher GPG averages. If the Kings were getting any more production right now, they’d be tops in the league, and I think we can all admit that would just be insane, you know, for a team with no superstars, etc..
Purcell is on a pace to score 32 goals. So I guess one would have to be ecstatic about that. Stoll is arthritic, as many have pointed out, and missed a bunch of camp (ditto). I would also point out that Stoll and Purcell have the highest “plus/minus relative to team” of any Kings forward. (And their GAA is the lowest, as well, I believe — certainly right at the bottom.) In other words, they are doing the job defensively.
I do think Stoll is — if healthy — the most vulnerable to trade. Like a Marleau for Stoll and prospects trade at the deadline.
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Nice blog Quisp! Another blog to read on a daily basis. Need help writing?
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Whatever happens, under NO circumstances should Murray break up the Fro-Zeus-Simmonds line. It is one of the best checking/scoring lines in the NHL right up there with the Draper/Maltby/whoever-they-decide-to-throw-in-there line in Detroit.
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This is not a knock on Stoll as a player. He is a situational talent who has a powerful shot and has considerable success in the past on faceoffs. He is the best faceoff center currently on the roster which is why he gets as many special team opportunites as he does (along with the hard shot). He is not the King’s second line center of the future. It will likely be Schenn or Loktionov playing that position or even Moller though I don’t think the Kings know what to do with him yet. Moller is ultra competitive but a bit small for the wing slso lacking ideal speed for that position.
Stoll is not a set-up man, takes bad penalites at crucial times and is a fill in until one of those young guys is ready.I’m sure DL has already figured this out. Having said that Stoll is a decent bridge player who might ultimatley find a niche on the third line.
Brown is fine on the second line with the right complimentary players and Purcell has the talent to succed there with the right center.
Let’s wait and see if Frolov ends up going to Atlanta with one or two others for Kovalchuk which will call for major line shakeups. Things are going well enough for the moment, and this is without question the deepest Kings team in years!
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how important is alexander frolov to the kings…?
i think those who had doubts prior to the season should now recognize this fact….
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please do not ever compare stoll to calder!
calder was garbage, Stoll on the other hand was well on his way to 20 goals last season until an injury near the end of the year.
you cant expect your 2nd line to outscore your first line. they are role players. purcell has 2 meaningful and timely goals. the second line has come up big when we needed them to…enough said.
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and yes…stoll is the most-likely to be traded…yes…even before frolov (wishful thinking on my part…!)…
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Frolov should be on that 2nd line with Brownie and Stoll,they would produce more goals. Frolov and Brownie are natural 30 goal scorers and they click damn well when playing together. Purcell on the 3rd line wouldnt be bad,i think he would do well with simmonds
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I’m also pleasantly surprised at how Purcell has turned around his play in the last few games. He’s forechecking and backchecking much harder than before and hopefully realized the style he has to play to succeed at this level.
For this line overall, the one main ingredient that I think is missing is chemistry. Brown just seems to be trying too much on his own(someone else mentioned “tunnel vision”). This sometimes point to a lack of chemistry with your linemates. Either that or selfishness which I don’t think is the case with Brown. The lack of any sustained forechecking pressure from the line also points to this as well. But it’s only been 5 games so maybe they just need time to mesh. No need to worry… yet
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Off topic here, but I think the gravy train might be over for the Redwings. They used to have it easy in the central division but I think this year the Central might be one of the most competitve divisions in the league
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Crownroyal re Loktionov and Moller:
I think management has pretty much decided what to do with Moller, which is to let him develop with Loktionov in the AHL, and bring him up at the right time. Right now, the line of Moller/Loktionov/Parse is one of the most potent in the AHL. Just as, last season, it was likely that two or three of Boyle, Lewis or Purcell would be called up by/around Christmas and at least one of them would stick, this season, I think it’s pretty likely one of Moller or Loktionov will be called up this season. But right now they’re in an ideal situation, building chemistry for, oh, probably the 2011-12 top six. Two years from now, it’s reasonable to expect Loktionov, Moller, Schenn and Clifford to be four of the top nine — you can never rule out trades, but those four guys seem pretty untouchable right now; Moller less than he was last year, his stock having taken a slight hit…but just a slight one. I hope he’s never dealt, but I can kinda sorta see it happening more than the other blue-chip prospects. I have to say, he is (like Hickey) one of those players I don’t think you can ever rule out.
In any case, three years from now, Stoll, Handzus, and probably one of Smyth or Williams will have moved on and will be replaced by those kids who won’t be kids anymore. Maybe Fro is still here (I hope so). Maybe Purcell scores 25 goals this year and gets a big contract (I hope so). A line up like this would be awesome to behold:
Moller/Kopitar/Brown
Frolov/Loktionov/Purcell
Clifford/Schenn/Simmonds
Wudrick/Nolan/Clune
Scuderi/Doughty
Greene/Johnson
Hickey/Teubert
Drewiske/Voynov
Quick/Bernier
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I haven’t had the opportunity to verify it, but with the great plus-minus numbers of our “second line” it seems they have often reciebved the attention of other teams’ checking lines. I would like to see the line match-ups before casting judgement here.
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McSorley Fan, check this Quisp’s blog entry. It might not answer your question exactly, but I think it’ll give you some info:
http://wp.me/ptucv-D6
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As long as they are winning, I don’t care if Peter Harrold scores all the goals.
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Nice article Quispie. So my question to Quisp is: Are you an accountant in real life? You seem to like the numbers.
I am a little worried about Brown as he does not seem to be hitting as he used to nor is he scoring like he used to. Going back to the second half of last season. I guess in the grand scheme of things I will take Kings overall wins and great play to Brown padding my fantasy team.
Also what is the site that allows you to watch the Monarchs games?
-Dave
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Bako
To answer your question:
This year — 19 goals in first 5 games
Last year — 14 goals in first 5 games
This year, the scoring from forwards is:
Smyth 4
Kopitar 4
Handzus 2
Purcell 2
Williams 1
Simmonds 1
Frolov 1
(that’s 15 of 19 goals — DOughty, JJ and Drewiske have the other four)
Last year, scoring from forwards was:
Handzus 2
Frolov 2
POS 2
Simmonds 1
Kopitar 1
Stoll 1
Brown 1
Moulson 1
Moller 1
(that’s 12, the other two goals were Preissing and Doughty)
Handzus, Simmonds and Frolov had 5 goals and 5 assists last year, 4 goals and 6 assists this year.
The first line last year was somewhat amorphous, but through the first five games had 2 even strength goals (POS and Kopitar) and two PP goals (POS and Stoll — note: assists indicate these were first unit goals).
Last year, Stoll had one goal and two assists. This year, no goals and four assists (unless you think Stoll is going to get 66 assists this year, his assist numbers have to be considered surprising). Last year, Brown had one goal, three assists; this year, no goals, three assists. Last year, Moulson and Moller had a goal each; this year Purcell has two. Again, I think we would all be over the moon if Purcell got 32 goals this season.
As far as your original question, Bako: the second line has as many even strength goals as last year’s first line (2). And the second unit of Purcell/Stoll/Brown doesn’t exist on the PP. Frolov plays on the 2nd PP unit instead of Purcell. Stoll plays on the first unit point. Williams is on the second unit point. Brown on the first unit RW. So there really isn’t any way to compare.
Bottom line: the Stoll line is doing fine in terms of producing. DB needs to start scoring though. He will.
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Wow Quisp. You’re the Fred Norris of stats. I don’t even question; it is but Fact.
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Macd -
No, not an accountant. I do like the numbers, but not in a vacuum.
Manchester audio feeds: http://www.hockeywebcasts.com/ahl/200910/manchester.php
video:
http://ahl.neulion.com/team/console.jsp
It’s 7 bucks per game (cheaper if you do a season pass, but probably not worth it unless you really plan on watching every game)
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I would worry if they wasn’t creating chances, Dustin has to breakout of his slump soon, he just needs a break to go his way.
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Its still very early in the season, and I dont care which line is scoring as along as the team is winning, and everyone is playing their best and never giving up on the play! Our most important player period is in Goal! Im thankful that we finally have some depth at goal. Quick is the key to how to kings fare ths season, and Ersberg, and Jonathan Bernier(waiting in the wings to shine).
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Quisp,
I agree with almost everything you’re saying-very insightful. I really like Moller and hope we keep him but DL might have to include him in a deal to get something bigger done. That would be down the road a bit.
My instincts tell me Loktionov may very well end up as the second line right wing playing with Schenn and Clifford or Smyth. I could also see Simmonds eventually on the first or second line playing with Kopitar, Loktionov or Schenn.
Depending on who gets signed between Kovalchuk and Frolov, I think a trade could happen involving those two near the deadline. The reason being if neither is signed by then both GM’s obviously will not want to let either walk away and by trading them for each other (plus players and picks) it makes it appear to the fan bases and ownership that they have at least tried to do something before both players become free agents. In other words it wood ‘look good’ and might even work out.
I also agree that Hickey has a lot of upside and would hate to see him go anywhere else.
I do believe Nolan was cut after being sent down to Manchester. Maybe somebody knows if that’s true?
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The kings are 4-1. The “second line” is fine.
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The 2nd line got the game winning goal against San Jose and they were on the ice for Doughty’s game winning goal against the Isles. The key element is Brown, once he gets going he will carry that line. I think Stoll will be the Justin Williams of that line (he does the right things but doesnt get enough credit) and Teddy and Brownie will be putting up the numbers.
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